The Big Think Creationism debate
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21-10-2013, 08:44 AM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
So, excubitor, . . . you expect me to [somehow] believe in a god who . . . becomes so angry [wrathful] that before 'he' can be satisfied, something corporeal must die bloody? How is that in any way "advanced"? How could that not be anything but a primitive human construct [of which many different "pagan beliefs" included a sacrifice]? Why would a "god" be pleased by the smell of a burning animal carcass? And how is it anything other than psychotic to "test a human by asking them to kill their kid"?

I lived ~30 years trying to "find god" and even had a type of "faith" that it was real. In hindsight, there was NOTHING there outside of my own human brain. . . and parents, pastors, and youth leaders TELLING me that it was all true. The main part of the equation is. . . humans. So even though I claimed to be "a christian" back then, . . . I never was. I played a part [though I was most sincere about it and fooled myself into thinking it was all real] that eventually I no longer could.

So, . . . threats of "being an apostate", . . . "being cast into hell", . . . whatever scary threats . . . . . are uncompelling. As I see religions now, . . . . they are about the most empty endeavors I can imagine. IF there had been something "real" there, . . . I wouldn't be where I'm at today.
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23-10-2013, 05:17 AM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2013 05:25 AM by excubitor.)
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
(21-10-2013 08:44 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  So, excubitor, . . . you expect me to [somehow] believe in a god who . . . becomes so angry [wrathful] that before 'he' can be satisfied, something corporeal must die bloody? How is that in any way "advanced"? How could that not be anything but a primitive human construct [of which many different "pagan beliefs" included a sacrifice]? Why would a "god" be pleased by the smell of a burning animal carcass?
This was a very interesting post and I spent over an hour thinking about the many insights into the unbelieving mind and how striking the difference from the believing mind. One thought that occurred to me is how hypocritical this post is. Do you like the smell of a bbq? A creature had to be sacrificed in order that you could eat. So you like the smell of a bbq and it makes you feel good to be invited to a bbq with your friends and eat the dead carcass of the animal, but then you ask "why should God like it?". So if you are feeling down or angry and upset with your friend and then in order to make amends for something he did to really offend you he invites you to his bbq and feeds you with beer and burning animal carcass so that you feel happy and the relationship between the two of you is restored, then that is OK. But if that principle is extended to God to appease God's anger to share a meal with him then somehow this is perverse and twisted. That is nothing short of hypocrisy.

God is not just interested in the smell of the bbq, he is mostly interested into the humble contrite heart of the person who makes the sacrifice. The sacrifice is designed to demonstrate that there is a penalty and a cost to sin. The humble and contrite sinner offers this sacrifice so that he may be reconciled with God and so that God can be favourable towards him and will come into his house and dwell with him.

The concept of animal sacrifice for sin is not of pagan origin. It hails back to the sin of Adam in the garden. God sacrificed an animal to take the skins from it to cover the shame and nakedness of the fallen Adam after he sinned in the garden. The covering for sin which comes from the sacrifice is an ongoing theme throughout the scriptures.

(21-10-2013 08:44 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  And how is it anything other than psychotic to "test a human by asking them to kill their kid"?
It is not quite as simple as this. Unfortunately you are ignorant of the christian faith which you say that you tried to find god in. Because of sin God had to sacrifice his only son. The account of Isaac being sacrificed by Abraham helps us to understand what it was like for God to sacrifice his son on the cross. The other thing to bear in mind is that God had already promised Abraham that his son Isaac would be the father of a great nation. So it was a test of faith. Abraham must have understood that God could resurrect Isaac to life again. Remember that Abraham's son Isaac was a miracle birth to Sarah his elderly wife who was well past childbearing.

Abraham was probably also hoping that God was testing his faith and would not go through with it. He said to Isaac when he asked where the sacrifice was "God shall provide a lamb" but when God stopped his knife from coming down on Isaac he saw a Ram caught in a thicket not a lamb, because Abraham was a prophet who was prophesying the Lamb of God who would come to take away the sins of the world.

That son of God, that lamb of God, was not spared but was slaughtered mercilessly by the Jewish horde for the sins of all mankind, that men could be delivered from their sins. Just as Isaac might have been resurrected, Jesus was resurrected from the dead on the third day and walked talked and ate among the people for 40 days before ascending into heaven to be with his Father in heaven.


(21-10-2013 08:44 AM)DeavonReye Wrote:  I lived ~30 years trying to "find god" and even had a type of "faith" that it was real. In hindsight, there was NOTHING there outside of my own human brain. . . and parents, pastors, and youth leaders TELLING me that it was all true. The main part of the equation is. . . humans. So even though I claimed to be "a christian" back then, . . . I never was. I played a part [though I was most sincere about it and fooled myself into thinking it was all real] that eventually I no longer could.

So, . . . threats of "being an apostate", . . . "being cast into hell", . . . whatever scary threats . . . . . are uncompelling. As I see religions now, . . . . they are about the most empty endeavors I can imagine. IF there had been something "real" there, . . . I wouldn't be where I'm at today.
No sorry. You are an apostate. You confess to having a real faith which you abandoned. That is apostasy. That is what the word means. Get used to it. This is not meant as an insult, but if you are offended then it is because you have offended God and need to smarten up, turn back to him and repent of your sins.

You weren't pretending to yourself that it was real, you thought it was real at the time. Nobody pretends to believe something. You either do or you don't. You might think you can fool yourself and fool me, but you will not be able to fool God in the day of the judgement.

I was listening to Peter Hitchens on the radio and he was talking about his new book 'The war we never fought' He describes the extreme hedonism and self centredness that the taking of marijuana creates in a person. I suspect that many half hearted christians have been taking marijuana and this has caused them to abandon their faith. He talks about a joint being a kind of substitute for communion and a symbol of a religion of hedonism.

I'm not saying you are a pothead but when you say "It was all in my head" it reminded me of this extreme narcissism and hedonism that afflicts the modern generation. You basically ignored the fact that all your pastors, parents and youth leaders genuinely believed and that this was inconsequential compared to what was going on in your head. This narcissism is where the ego shrinks to be about the same size as the self. The Christian way of life causes us to extend ourselves to include a community of the church, and to the wider society. It extends to the beliefs and practices of the church through all the ages and to the lives of the prophets and patriarchs in the old testament.

I suggest that you read the lives of the Saints. They died horrible martyrs deaths because they genuinely believed in something by faith. Thousands of them. Yet you compare their powerful faith with your pretend faith when you were a youth and think that you ought to exalt your pretend faith over the faith of the saints. Ridiculous. Will you or any of your other unbelieving atheist friends here die martyrs deaths for your unbelief. I doubt it.

This is because unbelief is worthless. Nobody sacrifices anything to obtain something worthless.
In the end the measure of a man is in his beliefs. If we have worthless beliefs then we are at heart worthless men, fit only to be thrown on the fire of hell. But if we believe great things, lofty things, noble things, good things, praiseworthy things, then we are men who will rise to glory in the train of our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ and for those precious beliefs and that promised glory we will give all that we have even our own lives in martyrdom.
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23-10-2013, 08:10 AM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
On "animal sacrifice", . . . I reject your "friend to a bbq to appease them for the wrong you did". If I did something wrong to a friend, I would hope it wouldn't take something like that to merely "forgive me". Sure, I might invite them over to show I care, but . . . again. . . I would hope that my friend wouldn't torture me for an extended period of time if I DIDN'T invite him to my next bbq!

On "Abraham agreeing to sacrifice his son". I have heard the whole "pointing to Jesus and God" thing, . . . as well as the "test of faith" argument. Bogus! No true god would even pretend to want a follower to kill their kid to prove their faithfulness. It is barbaric, immoral, and is NOT something that I would ever condone. It is a "deranged psychopath" test!

On me being "an apostate", . . . I don't really care what label YOU want to call me. It is irrelevant! For that 30 years, . . . it WAS all in my head. No doubt about that. I "believed" because I was indoctrinated into a specific activity and false belief that wasn't uncovered until I actually took the time to fully study/investigate the concepts on my own, outside of what others expected of me. It was THEN that I came to the realization that I never was "a christian", but played an act . . . for others. Sure, people [pastors, family, believers] can be "certain in their faith". But if they truly analyzed it, . . . they would have to admit that they only "pretend to know what they don't [or can't] know".
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23-10-2013, 08:35 AM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
I am still in the process of lifting my lower jaw off of the floor - did I just read someone drawing analogy between a BBQ meal with freinds to an animal/human sacrifice to a needy god figure! The rest of the explanations in that post don't even deserve a comment. I don't know what else to say other than, Excub, you are the exact reason why mythical hogwash should never be taught in public schools. The outcome is evidently quite scary.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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23-10-2013, 02:21 PM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
(23-10-2013 08:35 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  I am still in the process of lifting my lower jaw off of the floor - did I just read someone drawing analogy between a BBQ meal with freinds to an animal/human sacrifice to a needy god figure! The rest of the explanations in that post don't even deserve a comment. I don't know what else to say other than, Excub, you are the exact reason why mythical hogwash should never be taught in public schools. The outcome is evidently quite scary.
Your jaw drops because as you are detached from the real world. You go to the supermarket and by a packet of sausages or steaks and slap it on the bbq. If however you lived as most humans have lived for the last 6000 years you would have a small flock of animals. You would have to take the little lamb that your children had played with out the back and slit its throat and watch the blood pour out and the life go out of its eyes, then you would have to butcher it so that you could cook it on the bbq.

Then the meaning of "sacrifice" would be known to you. A creature must die so that your family and guests may be fed and live another day.

This slaying of the lamb and other creatures for food was once a common everyday event for all people. It is there to teach us what our Lord did for us. He was that lamb and he voluntarily, with his full will and assent, laid down his life for us so that we might live today and forever more.
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23-10-2013, 02:37 PM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
I think the difference between the lamb here and what the lard did was that the lamb actually held a purpose and didn't have the ability to keep us forever fed by tapping it's hooves, whereas the lerd could have just given those things without going through the bullshit.
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23-10-2013, 04:55 PM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
So, . . . if Jesus is supposed to be "god", . . . who is that "BBQ" for? That would be like, offending the person you will cook up.
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23-10-2013, 05:44 PM (This post was last modified: 24-10-2013 08:37 AM by cjlr.)
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
(23-10-2013 05:17 AM)excubitor Wrote:  I was listening to Peter Hitchens on the radio and he was talking about his new book 'The war we never fought' He describes the extreme hedonism and self centredness that the taking of marijuana creates in a person. I suspect that many half hearted christians have been taking marijuana and this has caused them to abandon their faith. He talks about a joint being a kind of substitute for communion and a symbol of a religion of hedonism.

I'm not saying you are a pothead but when you say "It was all in my head" it reminded me of this extreme narcissism and hedonism that afflicts the modern generation. You basically ignored the fact that all your pastors, parents and youth leaders genuinely believed and that this was inconsequential compared to what was going on in your head. This narcissism is where the ego shrinks to be about the same size as the self. The Christian way of life causes us to extend ourselves to include a community of the church, and to the wider society. It extends to the beliefs and practices of the church through all the ages and to the lives of the prophets and patriarchs in the old testament.

I fucking knew it!

It's those damn hippies, innit? With their marijuanas and their sciences and their rejection of abject thoughtless conformism...

This is the most priceless thing I've read in a long time. So, uh, thanks for that, excubitor, I guess.

... this is my signature!
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23-10-2013, 06:22 PM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
I feel like I should point out that I have never done any illegal drugs. Barely drink alcohol. I'm so hedonistic.
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23-10-2013, 06:23 PM
RE: The Big Think Creationism debate
The most I ever drank was when I still called myself a Catholic.
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