The Blasphemy Thread
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14-01-2015, 11:20 AM
RE: The Blasphemy Thread
(14-01-2015 11:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 04:23 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  That was implied in that analogy, though. We've shopped at those stores (except S-Mart, of course). Theists usually assume we've never looked or found one faith, didn't like it, then gave up on all religions. Not true for many.

The main problem is that theists always say they have undeniable proof of their gods. However, it always boils down to the requirement that you "feel" it or is very vague (explain the eye!) or so on.

And from what I've researched, I haven't found many religions that don't claim to have divinely received texts. Satanism claims not to, but that's the only one that comes to mind at the moment. I know there are a couple more. (I'm drugged up for an acute bacterial infection, so the noggin is not 100%.) After all, it's difficult (possible?) to have a religion without a deity.

And damn it, now I want a pizza so badly. Damn you, Q! Smile

I have undeniable proof of Jesus but cannot impart it to someone who doesn't truly want it -

It is only undeniable or proof to you. You can't communicate it to anyone else as it is not objective evidence. Wanting has nothing to do with it.

Quote:for an analogy consider a doctor who has a pill that can save you but you send him a drop dead email, then place his emails on ignore and never darken the door of his office again.

That is a simply dreadful analogy. It is nothing like that, e.g. the doctor actually exists.

Quote:I'm sorry but I have to call it as I see it and I've had dozens if not hundreds of "Q, I hear you saying I just need to ask God sincerely but I don't want to ask Him today" conversations. I think I will be seeing people in Hell who rejected my plea and that totally sucks.

I used this recipe at home last night to great effect, on another note. Consider crisping both sides before adding sauce and toppings. Mine had mushroom and sweet peppers...

http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/10/cast-...d-lab.html

You imagine messages in your head. That is not proof to anyone but you.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-01-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: The Blasphemy Thread
(13-01-2015 11:31 AM)Clockwork Wrote:  A better version of what I said is this... Not Costco, but your friends say a store is giving free pizza samples. Then one friend says it's Costco, another says Sam's, another says S-Mart, another says World Market, etc.

Now the problem with that is which one is the right one? Suppose you've gone to these stores and they've never had free samples. (In real life they have, but let's pretend they haven't.)

Now you're stuck with you've never seen free samples, and even if you like pizza which one is the right one?

No-one, because none of them is italian.





...





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14-01-2015, 09:33 PM
Re: The Blasphemy Thread
Again, incomplete analogy. If a pill saved lives, someone would take it, and we'd all know.

It's not undeniable proof if you have to already believe. That's circular. If you truly had actual undeniable proof that doesn't require a pre-existing belief, then no one in the world could deny it. Therefore it doesn't exist. By saying it's there and you won't share it is the same playground logic of "I have a secret but I'm not telling."

No religion has any undeniable proof. All of it requires a subjective belief of some sort.
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14-01-2015, 09:34 PM
RE: The Blasphemy Thread
(13-01-2015 03:14 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(13-01-2015 11:22 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Also, following up on blasphemy itself, Jesus was accused of being a blasphemer (Matt. 26:59–61; John 10:33,19:7) because He claimed divinity/One-ness with YHWH, not because He called God bad names...

Then Girly's been a blasphemer for a long time now. Longer than Jesus lived even. Tongue

#sigh
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15-01-2015, 02:46 PM
RE: The Blasphemy Thread
(14-01-2015 11:18 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(14-01-2015 11:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I have undeniable proof of Jesus but cannot impart it to someone who doesn't truly want it - for an analogy consider a doctor who has a pill that can save you but you send him a drop dead email, then place his emails on ignore and never darken the door of his office again.

I would expect that doctor to make efforts to contact others who could get the information to the patient. If he didn't take reasonable steps to try to help I'd label him as immoral.

If that doctor were the omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent creator of everything who is supposed to desire a loving relationship with every one of his creations and he didn't just make it happen I'd label him as the most evil, immoral agent to ever exist.

If the Christian god exists it has earned contempt, not worship. Luckily there's no reason to believe it exists except in the minds of the deluded.

Do you have a list of physicians who wrote 2,000 pages of books (by the way, "Luke" tells us more about medicine in Luke and the Acts than we know from Hippocrates's writings, or so I've been told--wait for it--someone shout "citations!") or who died horribly by crucifixion than told their friends to go and do likewise and give up their whole lives, their rights, their possessions, etc. to get you the pills you need?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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15-01-2015, 02:57 PM
RE: The Blasphemy Thread
(14-01-2015 09:33 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Again, incomplete analogy. If a pill saved lives, someone would take it, and we'd all know.

It's not undeniable proof if you have to already believe. That's circular. If you truly had actual undeniable proof that doesn't require a pre-existing belief, then no one in the world could deny it. Therefore it doesn't exist. By saying it's there and you won't share it is the same playground logic of "I have a secret but I'm not telling."

No religion has any undeniable proof. All of it requires a subjective belief of some sort.

I would argue that concepts of atonement and God and divine judgment and mercy are known and discussed worldwide. You take the blue pill, you've seen a Keanu Reeves trilogy, you pray to God for clemency, you're breathing air sometime in world history. I've been racking my brain trying to think of a nation or cultural group that was wholly atheist in history. Even if the people were giving lip service to the previous conquerors or the local deities, I can't remember any group being all non-God in history except for totalitarian modern regimes, where secret churches continued and currently flourish.

I hear what you're saying, by the way, regarding the circular nature of belief. Can we call it predisposition or attitude instead? Does that help? I know I feel deeply that people who reject Christ after learning the real gospel (that it's free, that one need not be religious to be saved, that God loves and cares for people immensely, etc.) must be predisposed to be selfish and stubborn, prideful and etc. Maybe some of you will repent, maybe others won't.

As a matter of fact, like any good evangelist would, I would say you are in denial as an atheist at some level, meaning you ALREADY believe something (something true) about God. Before you fly off the handle at me, and I hope you won't, some non-Christians, not just atheists, believe God is judgmental, some that God is loving, some atheists are actually agnostic--some are apatheist, I know, whatever.

I don't want to make you a guinea pig or demean you in ANY fashion, but may I please use you for an experiment right now? I'm going to write:

C'mon, you know in your heart of hearts, deep down in that secret part of you, in your mind, that God is real and wants to link to you for relationship and salvation.

Now, you may put me on ignore (I hope you won't). You may respond "Oh, HELL no. I don't believe even a tiny, little amount that there could possibly be a god, there's no evidence--plus if God does exist I want to run my own life and continue to do X which you Christians say is a big sin" or etc. but I believe via my experiment you just had a secret, sacred moment with me--and I say thank you. (You can send me that news via PM and I won't pass it on at this forum, by the way.)

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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15-01-2015, 03:36 PM
RE: The Blasphemy Thread
(15-01-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't want to make you a guinea pig or demean you in ANY fashion, but may I please use you for an experiment right now? I'm going to write:

C'mon, you know in your heart of hearts, deep down in that secret part of you, in your mind, that God is real and wants to link to you for relationship and salvation.

Now, you may put me on ignore (I hope you won't). You may respond "Oh, HELL no. I don't believe even a tiny, little amount that there could possibly be a god, there's no evidence--plus if God does exist I want to run my own life and continue to do X which you Christians say is a big sin" or etc. but I believe via my experiment you just had a secret, sacred moment with me--and I say thank you. (You can send me that news via PM and I won't pass it on at this forum, by the way.)

And you wonder why we call you delusional? Consider

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15-01-2015, 05:59 PM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2015 06:03 PM by Clockwork.)
RE: The Blasphemy Thread
(15-01-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I would argue that concepts of atonement and God and divine judgment and mercy are known and discussed worldwide.
Just because the concepts are known worldwide, that doesn't prove any god. I would argue that many of the supposed believers are believers in name only, and atone and forgive because they are human, not because of gods.


(15-01-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I hear what you're saying, by the way, regarding the circular nature of belief. Can we call it predisposition or attitude instead? Does that help? I know I feel deeply that people who reject Christ after learning the real gospel must be predisposed to be selfish and stubborn, prideful and etc. Maybe some of you will repent, maybe others won't.
We can call it that if it matters. But see, again, this is a common misconception about atheists. That somehow we know there are gods and that we deny. Why deny that which we know? I don't deny rain, wind, oxygen exchange in hemoglobin, the exchange of particles to create lightning, and so on. But we could argue that theists are too stubborn to stop believing in things that many of their acquaintances agree don't make sense. For instance, the whole idea that you love someone enough to tell them they're going to burn in hell forever. Or the idea that a finite lifetime can warrant an infinite punishment. If someone stole a paperclip, would you sentence them to 30 years hard labor and bare minimum amount of nutrients?

I'm not saying theists are stubborn, but that's a flip side of the coin. You can't say atheists are too stubborn and selfish to see the "truth," but that theists aren't in it for a feeling of superiority and the ability to judge and condemn others.

(15-01-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  As a matter of fact, like any good evangelist would, I would say you are in denial as an atheist at some level, meaning you ALREADY believe something (something true) about God.
Again, common misconception about atheists. Pretty much the above covers both. Theists just can't seem to grasp that we don't believe as they do. Instead, they call atheism a religion and insist that we do in fact believe in gods. My brother has a coworker that says the same thing. We don't believe because we don't see it. We don't turn our backs on things we think are true. But if you say I'm denying the Christian god, why do you insist on turning your back on Brahma? It's an older religion with a lot more followers, but you still just can't see it. (I'm not saying you should, but that's the same logic.)

(15-01-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Before you fly off the handle at me, and I hope you won't, some non-Christians, not just atheists, believe God is judgmental, some that God is loving, some atheists are actually agnostic--some are apatheist, I know, whatever.
Nah, I'm not angry. I just don't know if you're seeing my points without basing them completely on Christianity. However, many (including Christians) can say God is judgmental. For instance, I constantly hear "I won't judge, because only God does that." Then the constant idea that God is judging me, gays, pagans, etc. To say a divine being is going to punish me for not believing is judging. It's like saying a civil court judge isn't judging me.

(15-01-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't want to make you a guinea pig or demean you in ANY fashion...
If I felt you were demeaning me, I wouldn't have answered. Smile

(15-01-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ...but may I please use you for an experiment right now? I'm going to write:

C'mon, you know in your heart of hearts, deep down in that secret part of you, in your mind, that God is real and wants to link to you for relationship and salvation.

Now, you may put me on ignore (I hope you won't). You may respond "Oh, HELL no. I don't believe even a tiny, little amount that there could possibly be a god, there's no evidence--plus if God does exist I want to run my own life and continue to do X which you Christians say is a big sin" or etc. but I believe via my experiment you just had a secret, sacred moment with me--and I say thank you. (You can send me that news via PM and I won't pass it on at this forum, by the way.)
Here's my conundrum: I didn't feel anything at all. And I tried reading it to myself and aloud. My concern is that you're going to immediately say I'm lying to you or myself and that I did. (I hope you don't.) I can assure you that I didn't feel anything. Again, to say I just want to sin is an insult in itself. That is another claim I hear many times, that we atheists "know" and that we're so immoral and evil that we're looking for an excuse to do bad things. That's the only part I take as an insult. Not only does it call me immoral and inherently a bad person, it also calls me a liar.

I won't say you did that on purpose, so I'm not going to think bad of you for it. For you, sin is a very serious thing. I would never, for instance, ask you to piss on a church altar or to burn a cross. Why? Because I know that wouldn't be good for you.

If you do believe we had a moment, then I won't take that away from you. If I had had an experience, I would've said so. But don't feel bad. I've even read over my own old religious writings in which I professed the obvious need and want for God. Did I feel anything? Nope. Not a thing. That was just the old me trying to create new connections that just weren't there.

I didn't go overboard when I had my vision. Same reason. On a whim, I learned how to read runes (I have Viking blood). I'm always right when I do a rune reading. Do I believe I have special abilities? Nope. Not a bit. I can do cold readings so well that I hit more than John Edward at times. Do I think I'm a medium? Nope.

My point is, for you, God/Ain Sof makes sense. I won't take that away from you. Whether you want or need a deity, that's for you to decide. But please don't say that we as atheists somehow know there are gods and that we're denying them. That would do anything except seal our fate. If we truly believed that we face an eternal torture or permanent death (one church I was in believed Hell was not a place, but when you just die for the last time permanently after Jesus comes back), then why would we do that? That's like saying if you touch my book, I'm going to pour kerosene onto your hand and light it on fire and stomp on it. But then you'd say, I don't believe you exist, so I'm touching your book.

Do I know for sure any gods exist? No.
Do I believe there is evidence for them? No.
Do I think there ever will be evidence for them? I don't know.
Will I follow any god(s) or religion just in case? No.
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15-01-2015, 06:06 PM
RE: The Blasphemy Thread
(15-01-2015 02:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't want to make you a guinea pig or demean you in ANY fashion, but may I please use you for an experiment right now? I'm going to write:

C'mon, you know in your heart of hearts, deep down in that secret part of you, in your mind, that God is real and wants to link to you for relationship and salvation.

Now, you may put me on ignore (I hope you won't). You may respond "Oh, HELL no. I don't believe even a tiny, little amount that there could possibly be a god, there's no evidence--plus if God does exist I want to run my own life and continue to do X which you Christians say is a big sin" or etc. but I believe via my experiment you just had a secret, sacred moment with me--and I say thank you.

C'mon, you know in your heart of hearts, deep down in that secret part of you, in your mind, that you have no evidence to support your beliefs and that it is all nothing more than wishful thinking to combat fear and ignorance.

I believe via my experiment you just had a secret, lucid moment with me--and I say thank you.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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15-01-2015, 09:31 PM
RE: The Blasphemy Thread
(15-01-2015 06:06 PM)unfogged Wrote:  C'mon, you know in your heart of hearts, deep down in that secret part of you, in your mind, that you have no evidence to support your beliefs and that it is all nothing more than wishful thinking to combat fear and ignorance.

I believe via my experiment you just had a secretsenior, lucid moment with me--and I say thank you.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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