The Burden of Proof

[Numenor]

So hi I am Numenor, new to these forums. I am part of the gaming clan WA (Warriors of Æsir). I joined shortly after my fellow gaming clanmate WA-G316 (aka Jknight316) told me he got banned from this forum after I pointed him to this site, after he asked me for a list of bible contradictions in a private message on our gaming forums after a thread about religion on our gaming forums was locked after I got into a debate with 2 Christian clan officers.

So anyways there is still some debate about religion in my gaming clan right now since Jknight posted a thread about how got banned from this site after he started this thread.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...-questions

So I decided to share some of what I said to him in our gaming private messenger.

"WA-Numenor/Numenor Wrote:

WA-G316/Jknight316 Wrote:the whole premise of atheism is the lack of belief without proof, i there for bare proof burden in the atheist eyes

You said the burden of proof lays on the hands of the Atheist.

The reason why the burden of proof is not on the hands of the Atheist is because the Atheist doesn't believe in anything. People can be Atheist for different reasons, but Atheism itself makes no claims.

The reason why the Theist has the burden of proof is because he is the one making claims that certain things are this and that.

A analogy for this would be people who have cell phones.

Atheist are the people who don't have cell phones.
Theist are the ones who do.

So if an Atheist is walking along one day, and he runs into his Theist friend who just got an iPhone 5. His Theist friend then tell him that he needs to get the iPhone 5, and about all the great things the iPhone 5 has, and that people can't live without the iPhone 5.

The Atheist says he doesn't need/have the means or desire to own an iPhone 5 or cell phone in general, and disagrees with the claim that people can't live without the iPhone 5.

The burden of proof is up to the Theist who made the claim that the Atheist needs to get the iPhone 5. Its true that the Theist already told the Atheist all the good things iPhone 5 has (assuming what he said is true). But it doesn't prove that the iPhone 5 is truly great as he makes it out or useful for the Atheist. Nor does it explain how the iPhone 5 is necessary for everyone's life. It also doesn't explain why the Atheist should get the iPhone 5 over the Samsung Galaxy 3.

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Some Atheist are Atheist because they claim there is a lack of proof that convinces them to believe in God/gods/religions. Its still up to the Theist to provide proof that meets quality standards, that is rational and true. The Atheist doesn't have to disprove every claim the Theist makes because the Theist is the initiator. How do we know what can be considered proof...? Science, because science is the system of fact checking, if it goes against the previously proven facts, its not acceptable.

Some ideas that don't comply with science are so absurd or far fetched that there is no actual scientific theory designated to disprove them because they are pure imagination. The only thing that disproves them or allows us to dismiss them is the basic concept of science, also know as the scientific method. Which states that for something to be a fact has to be observable, testable, provable, and repeatable. That is our claim quality control.

Example of this would be that I claim that I am God himself, and I go to alternate dimensions and pretend to be a human person who debates against my own existence. In some I just go around having sex with women because having sex is the greatest thing a force like me can do.

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So the reason why Atheist, or any other Theist doesn't need to provide or prove and contradictions in the Bible, or point out bad things about the Bible because the Bible itself has failed to meet quality standards. It itself needs to be proven that it is credible. The basic step of credibility is having scientific facts that back it up, which it doesn't. And if somehow it does get scientific facts to back it up, then we then would move on to the next step of testing and fixing its claims to reflect reality as best as we can.

If it doesn't meet those qualities, then why should any Atheist or Theist believe in the Bible, over the Qu'ran, or any other religion. Even with your claim that you can't have the God of the Bible if you know for certain that he exist. What is the reason why we should have faith in that religion over another?

Example for this would be;

Theist: Biblical Joe likes ice cream. Biblical Joe hates cold foods.

Atheist: But wait isn't that a contradiction?

Theist: No it isn't because I said ice cream, I never said it was cold ice cream, when I said ice cream I didn't specify that the ice cream was cold or frozen, he likes ice cream that is melted.

Atheist: Ok then... But who is Biblical Joe?

Theist: He is the coolest person ever!

Atheist: Great can I meet Biblical Joe?

Theist: No.

Atheist: Why not?

Theist: Because he is to cool for you!

Atheist: Then show me a picture of Biblical Joe.

Theist: I don't have one.

Atheist: Does Biblical Joe even exist?

Theist: Of course he does! Prove that he doesn't!

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As you can see, its not the job of the Atheist to disprove the Bible, its the job of the Christians to sell the concept of Christianity to the Atheist and other Theist, and the best way about it is giving us some reason to believe in the credibility of the Bible. Proving that God exist would be the ultimate credibility giver. But you and other some Christians who think like you say that you can't prove God, then give us the next best credible thing that makes your religion better (more believable) than the others. Cause everyone can provide a finite amount faith for anything they are willing to give it to, just like how consumers are willing to spend a finite amount of money on a product given that they have reason to do so.

[FSM_scot]

He was banned because he had 2 previous accounts that had been banned for spam.

[Numenor]

(26-09-2012 05:12 AM)FSM_scot Wrote:  He was banned because he had 2 previous accounts that had been banned for spam.

Uh I messaged one of the other admins before; Stark Raving, and explained to him that its unlikely that he is those other people you suspect him to be since he didn't know that this website existed till like 3 days ago when I pointed him to this website, unless those 2 other accounts were banned with in the last 3 days. Other than that I can't testify otherwise for the spamming though.

But its no biggy to me, I am an actual Atheist so yeah just providing some context on where I am from, and how I got here.

Because yeah I have known about this site for quite a while now from the youtube videos, though I have never thougth to join it till today, after the situation I previously describe. I am most likely going to share the debates my clan is having right now as it unfolds later to see what you guys think lol.

[earmuffs]

worst clan name ever.

well.. top 20 worst clan names ever.

[Stark Raving]

For the record, not that it really matters, he was banned for spamming the moderator queue, not for having multiple accounts.

Just sayin.

[Numenor]

(26-09-2012 07:07 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  worst clan name ever.

well.. top 20 worst clan names ever.

Lol, well it matches the games we play, plus we get into the Viking/Norse theme we roleplay in. Plus the founder of the clan is of Viking decent so... yeah. Its good for creating stories and lore when we roleplay.

[earmuffs]

(26-09-2012 07:27 AM)Numenor Wrote:  

(26-09-2012 07:07 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  worst clan name ever.

well.. top 20 worst clan names ever.

Lol, well it matches the games we play, plus we get into the Viking/Norse theme we roleplay in. Plus the founder of the clan is of Viking decent so... yeah. Its good creating stories and lore when we roleplay.

Nothing against the name, I'm sure it's very fitting for a bunch of video game nerds (I'm one too so calm your tits). After all, what is more fitting to the theme of blood thirsty hardy sea raiders who adventured possibly as far as Canada and colonized Iceland and Greenland and lived in some of the most harsh conditions in the world, then a bunch of gaming nerds sitting at their PC playing Barbie adventures.

You see this is what is wrong with clans these days. The names suck balls. They're all "Warriors of Darkness!!rawr!" or "Special Ops Squad" or "Crusaders for Good" or whatever shitty name people have these days.
It's borderline embarrassing.

I'm just sayin.

[Numenor]

(26-09-2012 07:37 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  

(26-09-2012 07:27 AM)Numenor Wrote:  Lol, well it matches the games we play, plus we get into the Viking/Norse theme we roleplay in. Plus the founder of the clan is of Viking decent so... yeah. Its good creating stories and lore when we roleplay.

Nothing against the name, I'm sure it's very fitting for a bunch of video game nerds (I'm one too so calm your tits). After all, what is more fitting to the theme of blood thirsty hardy sea raiders who adventured possibly as far as Canada and colonized Iceland and Greenland and lived in some of the most harsh conditions in the world, then a bunch of gaming nerds sitting at their PC playing Barbie adventures.

You see this is what is wrong with clans these days. The names suck balls. They're all "Warriors of Darkness!!rawr!" or "Special Ops Squad" or "Crusaders for Good" or whatever shitty name people have these days.
It's borderline embarrassing.

I'm just sayin.

Well unlike other gaming clans, we don't just have a retarded name to sound theme like. We actually get into it... I ll share some of the great stories and songs we have later. Also we have been around for over 11 years now. So we not one of those retarded clans that have 5 people that die out in 3 months.

Quick example from our homepage. http://www.waesir.com/traditions.html

But anyways, anyone wanna bother discussing what I wrote about where the burden of proof lies, or keep talking about my gaming clan lol.

[earmuffs]

Quote:I ll share some of the great stories and songs we have later

I'd really rather you didn't.

I am quite well educated especially in history and so do not need to be schooled in Viking folktale and song.

[Numenor]

(26-09-2012 07:57 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  

Quote:I ll share some of the great stories and songs we have later

I'd really rather you didn't.

I am quite well educated especially in history and so do not need to be schooled in Viking folktale and song.

Well obviously you will be in a surprise when you realize what I am talking about is not actually history, or viking folk tale or songs.

More or less songs and stories written about the gaming clan itself in bardic style. Hence the roleplaying aspect of my clan.