The Cambrian Explosion
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05-07-2017, 02:00 PM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2017 02:17 PM by SeaJay.)
RE: The Cambrian Explosion
(05-07-2017 01:32 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  No offense Seajay, but you seem pretty mentally weak.
How so?

(05-07-2017 01:32 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  You keep denying it but your posting pattern suggest you deep down want to believe in a god very, very, very badly.
You could not be more wrong.

(05-07-2017 01:32 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  The way you've reacted in this thread is almost laughable and beyond ridiculous.
Which parts exactly were laughable and beyond ridiculous? I asked questions and followed up with research on the replies I've been given. I'm now of a mind that the cambrian explosion isn't a mysterious period of the past that somehow proves creationism or disproves evolution.

(05-07-2017 01:32 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  All the mountain of bullshit that makes up the religion you say you're trying to shake off and yet you can't seem to, but the slightest hint of not knowing something in the science realm and you're ready to throw out the baby with the bath water.
Not really. I posted this topic to find out more about the cambrian explosion because I'd never heard of it before and it got me thinking But at what point did I say "the cambrian explosion cannot be adequately explained so screw science it's all a bunch of nonsense"?

(05-07-2017 01:32 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  I don't know how many times this dance has to take place before you start to demonstrate you're actually "getting it". As was said, if you're looking for absolute answers, you're in some deep shit.
Right.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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05-07-2017, 05:19 PM
RE: The Cambrian Explosion
(05-07-2017 01:54 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 01:32 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  No offense Seajay, but you seem pretty mentally weak.
Give the guy a break, fear is often not rational but it exists all the same.
Indeed. I've known people terrified of various things and SeaJay seems authentic to me. It's not rational but it's not "mentally weak" either. In fact come to think of it the people I've known who are plagued with such fears were mostly quite intelligent and had distinct strengths. Not least, facing life with their irrational fears, which takes quite a bit of fortitude.
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05-07-2017, 05:36 PM
RE: The Cambrian Explosion
Evolution is a multivariate process, involving random mutations interacting with an environment filled with both predators and prey (which themselves evolve), and that same environment changes seasonally, over the centuries in accordance with the solar climate, over the millenia in accordance with the axial precession of the planet, and also random accidents such as impact events, megavolcanic events, tectonic drift, and so on. And let's not forget that life itself changes the environment (indeed, the oxygen hypothesis is based upon that).

The point is -- seeking to find one root cause for such a complex phenomenon as the Cambrian Explosion is not just a fool's quest -- it is asking the wrong question, because the question is not, what even caused the CE, but rather, how did the multiple variables interact to produce it?
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05-07-2017, 06:51 PM (This post was last modified: 06-07-2017 08:38 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: The Cambrian Explosion
(05-07-2017 01:55 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  I also posted this on the 'Ex Christian' website.

I hope you believe me by now that I'm not here pushing agendas, I come here looking for answers to questions I have. Not sure if anyone remembers but my story is a complicated one (http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...-Believe).

I've been reading up on the Cambrian Explosion 543 million years ago, and it's worrying me, quite a bit. Reason being, the science community does not know why the CE took place the way it did. The following is taken from this website:

http://burgess-shale.rom.on.ca/en/scienc...hp#explain

"Why did the Cambrian explosion happen when it did, and why was it such a unique event? While there is no current consensus among scientists, most researchers agree the explosion cannot be ascribed to a single, simple causal mechanism. The potential triggers can be classified in three main categories: environmental, genetic, and ecological. Deciphering the impact of each of these factors remains one of the most important challenges faced by palaeontologists today."

I read about the three main triggers but none of them are convincing and/or believed with any real conviction by the scientific community. :/

This is worrying. I thought the evolutionary fossil record was such that, whilst it never claimed to be 100% undeniably correct, it was a pretty solid explanation for life on earth. I believe to some extent it still is; it definitely shows us 'how' life evolves over time, but this sudden emergence of simple bacterial life forms to hard-shelled complex organisms during the Cambrian Explosion of 543 million years ago is problematic for me because the science community cannot explain it. It's like my faith in science just took a nosedive and suddenly all those things you hear in Christian circles about God exposing the hubris of learned men start flooding back.

Up until this moment, science had the answers to everything I looked for, and in that respect, it gave me answers to questions the Bible proposed. That's a naive statement of mine (to believe science had all the answers), but for me, personally, that was the case.

Now though, in the lack of any real evidence agreed upon by the scientific community, it takes as much faith to believe the Cambrian Explosion was not initiated by God than to believe it might have been. It's almost like 50%-50% odds.

21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Looking at the above verse I'm sat thinking, what if the creation story in the Bible isn't supposed to be read like a science paper, but is just a way to get across to us the knowledge that God created life?

To put it another way, I'm reminded of Galileo's quote: "The Bible shows the way to go to heaven, not the way the heavens go."

Whilst "most researchers agree the explosion cannot be ascribed to a single, simple causal mechanism", and whilst there's evidence of life before the Cambrian Explosion, it is different enough that science can't explain how it got from A to B and that causes me anxiety because now, my leaning is more toward the belief that Christianity is true and that means hell is again a real possibility. That's an overly simplistic way of looking at it, I know some might say I'm just invoking a 'god of the gaps' point of view, but I can't help it. That's how I feel right now.

This is the first time science hasn't had an adequate explanation for me and it's quite worrying. I feel I am on very shaky ground here.

Any suggestions?

Thanks all.

EDIT: Ironically, the best explanation I've read (currently) about the Cambrian Explosion, comes from this Christian website who uphold the theory of Evolution.

http://biologos.org/common-questions/sci...-explosion

I think you just want to believe SeaJay. If for every question that doesn’t have an answer you fall on your knees crying, “Goddidit” you better get yourself some industrial grade tile-setter kneepads. OK, enough snark.

If you thing think the Cambrian Explosion was the shits, take a look how it is dwarfed by the Great Ordovician Biodiversification Event! I think Zeus made that one. (OK, really, enough snark).

[Image: gobe-2.jpg]

But it was the Devil who caused the 5 huge mass extinctions along the way right? (I just can’t help myself tonight Weeping )

[Image: mass_vs_bckgrnd.gif]

You want definitive answers where there may never be any. What is a sensible, thinking person to do? They accept this and forgo shoving a diety into every dark nook of knowledge. Drinking Beverage

Seriously. Grow up. No disrepect.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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05-07-2017, 10:03 PM
RE: The Cambrian Explosion
(05-07-2017 01:54 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 01:32 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  No offense Seajay, but you seem pretty mentally weak. You keep denying it but your posting pattern suggest you deep down want to believe in a god very, very, very badly. The way you've reacted in this thread is almost laughable and beyond ridiculous. All the mountain of bullshit that makes up the religion you say you're trying to shake off and yet you can't seem to, but the slightest hint of not knowing something in the science realm and you're ready to throw out the baby with the bath water.
Give the guy a break, fear is often not rational but it exists all the same.

I think he HAS been given a break; quite a few. I don't dislike the guy, but he seems to post the same type arguments over and over, and he's had a definite pattern. He'll post things about the Christian side and tip toe the line of being apologetic, and then after it's pounded into his head he'll act like he gets it. But then turns around the first hint of anything "wrong" he comes across with science (which seems to be something he reads from a very biased source), he's very quick to act like there's some major problem.

There's only so many times you can go through that song and dance before you just have to be blunt.
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05-07-2017, 10:11 PM
RE: The Cambrian Explosion
(05-07-2017 02:00 PM)SeaJay Wrote:  
(05-07-2017 01:32 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  No offense Seajay, but you seem pretty mentally weak.
How so?

(05-07-2017 01:32 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  You keep denying it but your posting pattern suggest you deep down want to believe in a god very, very, very badly.
You could not be more wrong.

(05-07-2017 01:32 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  The way you've reacted in this thread is almost laughable and beyond ridiculous.
Which parts exactly were laughable and beyond ridiculous? I asked questions and followed up with research on the replies I've been given. I'm now of a mind that the cambrian explosion isn't a mysterious period of the past that somehow proves creationism or disproves evolution.

(05-07-2017 01:32 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  All the mountain of bullshit that makes up the religion you say you're trying to shake off and yet you can't seem to, but the slightest hint of not knowing something in the science realm and you're ready to throw out the baby with the bath water.
Not really. I posted this topic to find out more about the cambrian explosion because I'd never heard of it before and it got me thinking But at what point did I say "the cambrian explosion cannot be adequately explained so screw science it's all a bunch of nonsense"?

(05-07-2017 01:32 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  I don't know how many times this dance has to take place before you start to demonstrate you're actually "getting it". As was said, if you're looking for absolute answers, you're in some deep shit.
Right.

And now the "who me" routine.

Look anyone who has been around can read your initial post and see clearly what you were doing. You're playing this innocent routine, but yet if you seriously wanted to learn about it, why did you form the first post as if you now had some serious doubts about science because of a few things you read. You immediately acted like chicken little.

"This is worrying"...." it takes as much faith to believe the Cambrian Explosion was not initiated by God than to believe it might have been. It's almost like 50%-50% odds."........are you fucking kidding me? For someone claiming to just want to learn about something you now say you were ignorant of, you sure made some pretty strong statements that most defintely had a bias to them. And if you haven't figured it out yet, THOSE were the laughable parts.
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06-07-2017, 12:37 AM
RE: The Cambrian Explosion
I think he's sincere REF Smile If he was a sneaky Christian trying to expose us devil-atheists for who we really are, then a better technique would be to rile us up and make us all post insults. As it is anyone who reads the discussion finds some guy asking a question and then a whole bunch of straightforward replies which to my mind at least, clear up the matter in a quite satisfactory fashion. It just doesn't fit with the attempting-to-gain-converts routine, because it's got to be a totally shit technique. You stand a better chance of losing any Christian who reads the discussion, than gaining any of us for your side.

That said, SeaJay you sure are nutty Wink Just like the rest of us, in each of our little ways.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-07-2017, 12:40 AM
RE: The Cambrian Explosion
I think that years of abusive indoctrination have trained Seajay into thinking certain ways. I really don't think he wants to, but rather he can't help it. Emotional beliefs can easily trump logical ones when they are powerful enough, and they rationalize themselves however they can. When in its grip, it "feels" so real that logic must support it. I've felt the same way when hugely depressed; my logic goes haywire as I try to support what would otherwise be obviously false conclusions.

I think the issue here for you Seajay lies here, and not with the CE or even science. I think it's about continuing to challenge the broken logic that religion has drummed into you. Logically, it doesn't matter what science can explain and what or can't. If we don't know something, then we don't know. It's religious thinking that tries to transform this "don't know" into a "do know, and it's..." which you already recognize is God-of-the-gaps thinking. It's also the false dichotomy that either science can explain it, or else it's "God". That's not the case at all. There are an infinity of other explanations, which could all potentially never be testable by us and so science could never touch them. If such an explanation is beyond our grasp, religion pretends to magically know what it is while denying that it's possible to know.

I think you know all this already, I'm not trying to be patronizing, just to reinforce solid logical thinking Smile Because I believe that's the key to beating this. Of course, I may be wrong, you know yourself better than me. I wish you all the best and I'm proud of you for continuing to fight and not giving in. The system is designed to make you surrender your mind and live in fear, and clearly it works in most cases.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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06-07-2017, 01:42 AM
RE: The Cambrian Explosion
It's upsetting when people accuse me of being mentally weak or a closet apologetic, but I do understand where they are coming from. It is because they don't think I am I am genuine and/or they get frustrated.

All I can do is point them this topic:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...-I-Believe

And posts #1, #2, and #56.

I come here to try and ruin my faith and that is why I ask questions about the veracity of the Bible and its claims. I do this because I have been so traumatised by my fear of hell that twice I almost signed myself into the local mental hospital. My wife and daughter were in tears at one point. I was barely coping and so I thought about what I could do, and the only way I could see out of this mess was to tear down my faith. Reason being, if my faith was destroyed, I would no longer be afraid of hell. There is no other reason for me doing what I am doing.

This is why I ask questions like 'Did Jesus Fail to Return' and ask about 'Critical Thinking Resources' amongst others. It's not to surreptitiously get you to believe Christianity, it is to ruin my faith.

I'm not being deceitful here, and I am not mentally weak. This is where I come for help in tearing down my faith. I'm not going to last 2 minutes if I posted the topics I have posted here, on a Christian website, and even if I did, the answers I'd get would be slanted toward strengthening my faith not eroding it.

At the risk of sounding overly dramatic, aside from the Ex-Christian website, I really do not have any other place to go.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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06-07-2017, 02:04 AM
RE: The Cambrian Explosion
(06-07-2017 01:42 AM)SeaJay Wrote:  It's upsetting when people accuse me of being mentally weak or a closet apologetic, but I do understand where they are coming from. It is because they don't think I am I am genuine and/or they get frustrated.

All I can do is point them this topic:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...-I-Believe

And posts #1, #2, and #56.

I come here to try and ruin my faith and that is why I ask questions about the veracity of the Bible and its claims. I do this because I have been so traumatised by my fear of hell that twice I almost signed myself into the local mental hospital. My wife and daughter were in tears at one point. I was barely coping and so I thought about what I could do, and the only way I could see out of this mess was to tear down my faith. Reason being, if my faith was destroyed, I would no longer be afraid of hell. There is no other reason for me doing what I am doing.

This is why I ask questions like 'Did Jesus Fail to Return' and ask about 'Critical Thinking Resources' amongst others. It's not to surreptitiously get you to believe Christianity, it is to ruin my faith.

I'm not being deceitful here, and I am not mentally weak. This is where I come for help in tearing down my faith. I'm not going to last 2 minutes if I posted the topics I have posted here, on a Christian website, and even if I did, the answers I'd get would be slanted toward strengthening my faith not eroding it.

At the risk of sounding overly dramatic, aside from the Ex-Christian website, I really do not have any other place to go.

If you have real problems then internet forum won't help you with them.

You need to seek help of professionals if you're really so scared of something called hell - it's not some backhanded insult but my sincere opinion.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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