The Case For Christ

[Erdrickgr]

(14-05-2012 11:19 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  

(14-05-2012 01:27 AM)Erdrickgr Wrote:  I read the book, but it was when it first came out years ago, and unfortunately I don't remember a lot about it. What I do remember is that I didn't really care for it any more than the Josh McDowell stuff, and that was even when I was very religious. More recently I read the refutation of the Strobel book by Robert Price, The Case Against the Case for Christ, which I liked parts of, but Price makes some fairly fringe theories/claims himself. But looking at amazon.com now, you can buy the Strobel book for $4 (used), so if you're interested then why not give it a shot?

I'm reading Price's book right now. I like it a lot as it is very methodological in refuting Strobel's one-sided, evangelical look at the Bible. I wouldn't discount Price as being fringe, as his scholarship seems well grounded, with one exception that I've found. He really tries hard to date the gospels as late as possible, suggesting they very well could have been written in the 2nd Century. Most scholars, even of the liberal ilk, disagree with his dating. Among other factors to be considered, the most glaring is that Mark probably was written before 70 AD, as evidenced by the way the author makes no reference to the razing of the Jerusalem Temple. This crucial event is given mention by the other Gospel writers, showing they were written after 70 AD, as they mention the Temple having been destroyed and the Jewish people running from Jerusalem under the Roman onslaught. The other evidence is the way the Early Church Fathers are already referencing the Gospels in the early 2nd Century as if they've already been in circulation for a number of years. Other than his possible issues with dating, I think he is pretty spot on in his case against Strobel and I highly recommend checking out A Case Against A Case for Christ.

I perhaps should have chosen a better word than "fringe" (which is more negative than I meant), but just to add to what you've said, two other things that I was thinking of was the mythicist position that he holds, and the swoon theory in particular. I don't think things are completely clear on that, or even as clear as (for example) Ehrman tried to argue in his recent book Did Jesus Exist?, I just haven't seen a lot of scholars championing the ideas, and the swoon theory in particular I haven't really seen an argument for which I've found persuasive.

[Blood]

(14-05-2012 11:19 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  

(14-05-2012 01:27 AM)Erdrickgr Wrote:  I read the book, but it was when it first came out years ago, and unfortunately I don't remember a lot about it. What I do remember is that I didn't really care for it any more than the Josh McDowell stuff, and that was even when I was very religious. More recently I read the refutation of the Strobel book by Robert Price, The Case Against the Case for Christ, which I liked parts of, but Price makes some fairly fringe theories/claims himself. But looking at amazon.com now, you can buy the Strobel book for $4 (used), so if you're interested then why not give it a shot?

I'm reading Price's book right now. I like it a lot as it is very methodological in refuting Strobel's one-sided, evangelical look at the Bible. I wouldn't discount Price as being fringe, as his scholarship seems well grounded, with one exception that I've found. He really tries hard to date the gospels as late as possible, suggesting they very well could have been written in the 2nd Century. Most scholars, even of the liberal ilk, disagree with his dating. Among other factors to be considered, the most glaring is that Mark probably was written before 70 AD, as evidenced by the way the author makes no reference to the razing of the Jerusalem Temple. This crucial event is given mention by the other Gospel writers, showing they were written after 70 AD, as they mention the Temple having been destroyed and the Jewish people running from Jerusalem under the Roman onslaught. The other evidence is the way the Early Church Fathers are already referencing the Gospels in the early 2nd Century as if they've already been in circulation for a number of years. Other than his possible issues with dating, I think he is pretty spot on in his case against Strobel and I highly recommend checking out A Case Against A Case for Christ.

Mark is written after 70, as the "little apocalypse" of chapter 13 makes clear:

[font='Charis SIL']13 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”(B)
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives(C) opposite the temple, Peter, James, John(D) and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you.(E) 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
[/font]

[Erdrickgr]

(14-05-2012 04:26 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  stevelikes2curse recently completed an analysis of the book.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j60-eK5sf...1FA8681B70

Thank you for posting this... I'm only through the 6th video in the series, but given that they're all like 25-45 minutes long, that's still been a good bit of content so far, and he strikes me as not only well read about Christianity, but also about religion generally. Also, his "5 things I hate about..." stuff is great, at least from the half dozen I watched. Especially the MacGyver one.

[Erxomai]

(14-05-2012 06:37 PM)Blood Wrote:  

(14-05-2012 11:19 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I'm reading Price's book right now. I like it a lot as it is very methodological in refuting Strobel's one-sided, evangelical look at the Bible. I wouldn't discount Price as being fringe, as his scholarship seems well grounded, with one exception that I've found. He really tries hard to date the gospels as late as possible, suggesting they very well could have been written in the 2nd Century. Most scholars, even of the liberal ilk, disagree with his dating. Among other factors to be considered, the most glaring is that Mark probably was written before 70 AD, as evidenced by the way the author makes no reference to the razing of the Jerusalem Temple. This crucial event is given mention by the other Gospel writers, showing they were written after 70 AD, as they mention the Temple having been destroyed and the Jewish people running from Jerusalem under the Roman onslaught. The other evidence is the way the Early Church Fathers are already referencing the Gospels in the early 2nd Century as if they've already been in circulation for a number of years. Other than his possible issues with dating, I think he is pretty spot on in his case against Strobel and I highly recommend checking out A Case Against A Case for Christ.

Mark is written after 70, as the "little apocalypse" of chapter 13 makes clear:

13 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”(B)
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives(C) opposite the temple, Peter, James, John(D) and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you.(E) 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

Chapter 13 makes clear he wrote it in 70 but not long after. From Dale Martin, NT Professor at Yale Divinity School:

[img]data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAikAAACTCAIAAADEPx5zAAAY7ElEQVR4nO1dXZLjOq/79tT7X1vuw9Tt8hFJECRlxekADym3LILgj8yZniTzv5cgCIIgnMX/3i1AEARB+Dpo9giCIAinodkjCIIgnIZmjyAIgnAamj2CIAjCaWj2CIIgCKeh2SMIgiCchmaPIAiCcBqa​PYIgCMJpaPYIgiAIp6HZIwiCIJxGPnt+PPxbJ3387uRN5nB9YQGNiG7aX+K8ifxKO/d17ZxbUSqiG2OPKr21vbtOJnOSnHfh4U8bu+35Kd2Lwt97ltR84uzZbvJG5pNqhxXEj/i9aD+47SjS7HmLr114e34eWMdHYTp77BFd/oTr/lUJ/ynY3iV9pfLswyWSBDS4PIx+Vx4IBCwutiBk1wR4ccUvDI1CRCtk4LzfXoyWHCRhkWQjcq3IECJtriQgj​/EFFq1fVxKIC/Dz1cSSgG01jZGhm3AyorRAyzpIKZOrqIK8bdXjEKPZYysUlSricYvhMpC+SHlYZ0NDKQMRW0khv2jvWu​ZULeMC21qUAp+kmt9mX9uS9oYwb2Y+26QkoM3lnHTR9db2NAIeZiVVVU3ywjbJFfByh8cS9vzOzVUTNQ​GWXsoX4CQPZCq42t8pIRY/EbY9S1UBjAt81F2Gkt9hjPY1YsNPJVJturMUwi6SEtuwwW59nrZt7YbtB7Oxf5KrHuGHzZ6fC1zD6x7s​JS2t9VXiWQwbZyMKgcmAu5/PJNmyZN/joHYVgtQGSpP6HcZoX60vRnAj2EkIJIlbpqp4Mi5eOZY3IWzb2g2lZiiF5u5PJTG5uu6cJ4H0yGPz7CG​bIOLcRVsyIWu/q7/BthLPRHZb7bAQJW09v8MY7SvDsCV17aZqkLggxTPeSeXYRSpy+9kEGyZ1JA9IVVIJvafExGOKu2bPdTw​yhiRtusjLa9/FJkwGgHiepxHU8LnM7Hd7NA2WcbHlmVuKcVILPi7MDO6SJFsOUTUud2XYRRPC3xUyLcz1wlbNPBDcOyM​W8+RXPZZw1+/cXkGRritRDPYu9uXyMBm0XhbNvAarP/LrrriBWJ7rzlLLWh6cB3dP6gI0ZbQBBG598Tt7MUYXr6ymgJlM3cJsSex6WmImXdHi4iKShGOP+PkuAm​VibKtpdHmiPS+ThLRAID+WrRFvRJ7G2PM4hL7X4IuwsW8O43OVb8HXhr838L+dxo+LTrPnj+Pngndr6e​Ojxc/xteFr9vD4uOg0ewRBEITT0OwRBEEQTkOzRxAEQTgNzR5BEAThNHbOHv4fu3b9s1jD48Z/kcNvAK3avhc2PxOFpO2PQdtjFR/9Fgw+vVXCO07HQzK8t8OBl15TRQeBIbwpw9Gbtnfxf93s2Qi3S96oZwtOPjImw3uj38fWIsJ9s+cOPC2​993X49j+3RdfAZCOeMnvc8WsfvnbRtcWD/ZcHuG57BK6j/cA7mD04LqbDeD2RSMzmvi5IYwF14bdFIlOnfCqA31udRhkg6+iaY8EN10u93G3RfsY7EE9yRo4wm/u6AOckis6aNJgj2vQamDAMZFFsM2AZVVCzBytbQoruYtuU5+WFPfGIuyFaWby7r6W4Sn3DtEiJjclPqU​a9bWRQ9kgzVhalYz902mhR4P1u19tPh731xzp8yAxoQXQ9q2qG3Qsgo4ry7AGLjahcczLjPY/MNv5su698XGB/j7bENk9UJKD0cLzC3Zyy9TrnjNPeoajWaJfr7acD3ProDsc6eeaIqqShlOHtbdZG/3duG4/ZQm4LsLhOPQJOZhves3iMjhCOKw2Kp22zkQ2H87lcRyR4m72LtYENoF4RyIT0nPImvPf7XDPbqt6jW/bV0trFlwFgS7PH5MQNwdXZYHZjcX/krV6DnERRMDKqKL/XIG0psI2MKgqv4ZF0vWxjuuS1u8BtWjfMuUgyn8Apvw1vTtnIeqV+73DaaFFe0nbX20+Hu+0vdfiQGa9​r9nQS3Sg/f9qvK1UZJS/VJ2wjrlLfl9LVi25S1va2qraeqtTvHU4bLbosNnq47frW0+HeBZI+pcMnzFEUjAZ8q5cTPoo59r/Pzb3GO//9GNXGdX3dGQljsuzalrxjcnA38ojvWloskvRrz9JyqMhaWzYyTHc/32Ckld3Gd07J6bKNcQS8Y0lz11G9XNs0CsuZFtpy8mECtihGmxm+7kCnGzJmjqJYvGBznH+7AfceboZI​fAP6XgNBuBHDs7rxqAvCo6DZIwg3QrNHEFxo9giCIAinodkjCIIgnIZmjyAIgnAamj2CIAjCaWj2CIIg​CKdxaPbYt4q7t6IVhvYJcN/pP2Fz31a//Y32WMMBL69BUJMs3RRd+nmLkuHQ70k0PnrSZj4J0vuWU/89OP33Hrc7wWSqsj0Ee7swGtUHwj884YajOr0GJhuh2QNWdjGfhGbPHdjwvQZuxu1OTIJ/tMzXV+zdvWbCIdnc1wVpLLhZq09VMmTXu1u4qv7fFVdhlBY+XXzUYH8arL2OJNltS7CRDMwWJTbKiXVk​ndokR1Sp62VbtAGEae9aBlezu60kHuQNu4u8X9dLOfxabPg+t5cp3nIdWVlb2wQug90QueN1MuIjNqCn​EcsCUgzeg71XC0fWIjqigJx3B2hxRA2rattUU8GH7y4uG6qdbA9dVQ8+3WRa8FlgzmlVfOqapErJGdsv​RP//73E32O53N9hb9pVhSPf3aEtsw4epXYwU8iZVkXY/KbUdVGTCM0dUJQ2lbmxkgHxUkbT8zrSaYHOv0MwKn5/J7AF3eZ6qYGabZs+CPb9zu2/2RC6Aqh5tm408XT//BbB1Xbs/gg62IhnvW44Tc/4jJbzgSCepIbrVLnQURerLXXHDf8HUWb8uf0SLr8ly4BU+P9U+ZAJh8pZujhLIiMS2X4g9/38P0/TWypos5rhx99K6aucigcKJEmBiBfPeG8eJXMT6G+nC66Us2ZVd3cinAhjioHrH0C5WzxfJ38tPtQ9Jd1​XXZFs2PAqvXf9/D/8MZboKu+idjciqN5Aazdp4TLuL5FO1JJIR0Hvy4nJP0oWVt2cPsL1v9lTDZ/qWD83OnoaeNEY+TMxDbovc8a75PJAi+ZP7Jdjz//fwTV86ga6LRr/au5Fy93HJ+7WNu3Twwl96WACdjG1qxTytSP1uesHd6MAzYWIvfIekQbmc10XQwFFf4XxGvl5e6rDyiNa​a/L7ysUc/RpIa4nFjpCR83qLNpPfF0JURlebbsP/zPcrseWzJ+R2Fe1QzPErM3WgH+1VZEt6IzbNHjfsWzNO+sXD4T/pvxNP03IdJpN+TJeG90Pe5CYIgCKeh2SMIgiCchmaPIAiCcBqaPYIgCMJp9D9bequJtb3pXVjpOzVvxX​v/Xdd9J2t0a8h8h4m1PdAkE18f+k5C3sUD3+MA3vP9++NfensFONQN21vxMbNnOwCzZs+Hzp7t2JsizZ6b​bEna6MM3mj3VnVtQ+2zpi/74m/tRLPv6u8c6cm0jv797ovQBVe5mxlcaBc5MIyg+QNd8IQHysC3W0EiF69ryWEeubTUhjKp5ihhyNzSsP0​11GmZqmy5eBbuLac6ZQKqyI0lWLV/KaCcfe3QdKSzlAXCSapkQdqH2nTpXESX1VXPmgmEmpYJ4eV/DzKSOGgHiNAIebIs1/O0m2ZWilJDMDOmaDxNnhuQ53DORSHd/NbGMTnd/L9W7zg7wwvAwaofY+f/3vLI4o0jIo14VU/VF0jaiSPl7jjaK32hb4uG9PKRJzqeXf+4A1y7Ijq0+vPi+7fUMf9CwqqHHKJztTeju7HFi8mr5hhjNni​uuG+wK4Ik2RLfue6yQMTK1sUlY2HY5YsijqJlspyKxwr/XJFtS1Cs3XsSuFxlMRVwxqcKIttQzgJmXvZBY2obHqEYl2pSBDLnBGTlamFMNW7Dn7z3YKs0R4CRJShV​1t/ExplFg/WlQDUd8TkieRsW/oUlKLiyG5W60EO8FLJYeXiVVvb5NqdxblrbhkWmh7U2YbuA5SZ5qU/Vw4+/cJo8VMh0nZ0/v4ejqHwaFH4hnZk8jyX+gSXa5aPdVNWQLvlUwW+PhdV/PRCKrrucee7QN8yeUb4jy/6GwqFlW3MXfH6Od7mZg61q516RJNRwyCnfnKy4tGRQIEJBjwRFJKtKa86lIC405U9lkPkkT7AvHa2U3y​v3rl3eNZZRk20K4K67siNkliUzIxSgEsNLLJ+MIa8aqsHkk1eXcW76olFXoew0E4TPQOPO7HhMCiW9Iu​GaPIHwXNHseji/JtmaPIAiC8KnQ7BEEQRBOQ7NHEARBOA3NHkEQBOE0NHsEQRCE05jOnve+tSN9g7y7wrM9Gb2PNXwJlg9​ATPIwJ2kwgDa+r6Z3uIi6dJJM91Ms21EqVu/jL197PP/hD84e+5GrNttjMRmx34A7Zs+c4eGzB3jfxTOM4o5PODK+Stv+5APnDuSzJ6r39XjbRzz44wkgJHl+V6q​zx7ItUbjCqvIYdxOeSIkbb1sq0L9cL9krFTHSA3z1JLnkqarrjzaZTDiWoeS0TYLzs6TIMqcJx5FujyL​yiA2BeHJnNUZgaK+jRSYDjdgx+XlsmD02lbiEpTKARTeJS2czbFh/VV5qsj1dDPPdFam6Tg+5u6dK1U4XDqSd3obTCQm+xZzftNzYy8Yo3BXe+94S8NtI22PnFIs8jMJ3idrX​VytIsoQTcleqy4wfcC6w5ob4LekimzuV+i79QFjb++Q5Qj4gUg2kVN7F3kPBt83wqO6K4vfanSJznedn​TxT1rU/OJ+Aps+dl+um6kvYZI3UhZAQszEChu99eR4suOcnDu2Oi6+l3rXB0WM+Vre19mK70Io2RlGptqySMAPv​KhMxoS3k2RsGzXQlTnaUSkDEytlYemYE0TJcnYn4LHjR7MA9pvkXqRDM2Id2VeKrMpLuefvIokhuGzTZ​Jl12sPm6q/KSLdgs1DgXfP8ei4NmGfttHrJGfyaPA3TA5dMdQ+D8U+OvG7Nn+pMMXk5N/Jkyeh9l2viKTkFNtJNXds6fdkxHJlqc2/+xjJGFfJM97o3hlSd5yxBrKn3BO34hbZs/r/2scRfhzATbBi0xzWxfgrnsd2fJhpi4mPIB54iJddL28LomqkrvaJv0QKXxVCgHqngrDDGBDxF9STsZrr​5fiMmUidw6jABtwYyy++J3tGK+w627gTAYsCR97Sn4Y+l4D4SmITvt5JcJfhdrpOdDsEZ4C94+Qb1Ei/FWoo54DzR5BEAThNDR7BEEQhNPQ7BEEQRBOQ7NHEARBOA3NHkEQBOE0Ct9r8NK7YCvBMp8D2O60TXhHE​W3bkF6Y/bsEky29UXlb1XYTa3tTG0QfZGlQbZNV5Cy53vsZmr/6gN0we74K7U51Pw621ymPw7On7eU5s6fK9qGzZztAD/zV2XPgtP4NUP+Hwu+D8vc1+hM9+NysaxuZbFnktbl37XXEsKxjSeBH16OrhFFOpoUx4ZPmenGzB5hxtk​tUvMho8SrpFSdqcTTJp6sK87iuLY915NpGfkHsqap5ihhyNzSsP001jh2rAiJTj7zCyEspwPMo/73neh1dLNeM7R2LrsdIW8NjY5t9BQw4XW1bt/n46pCBD1sluoX37BKJJTHlmOQz7dth25cuGrFHPAxbozEiwu09yWeJFwk88lFPFt+I/u/ccK4BSbQT86TJmuS9V7/GNvvKR/GQDDRM2q3SPpANk8lTb6+LEg/vhZwH9+nf6KJkOxkV2wlTkRaTZkh3vhE7Z8+/638AJJFJyoMXU5GuIz4uu9jYZl/JKKKsljLgasYmOGlV12RQII3VuF678zPZ1mtC18RdwQpBVtNKlWKv+mLiZbaVAndD3lKdUg6BR9LddR2​rdXe+EZtnj73rrpDdnC42OszFhKe0zb7e7Z1M9TBpJE+1VcgDyVClJiTPZNuwCbFVqpDpogMttCVFfO/xHndVZ5LDhjvedcT/Ltz1Oze354CJe7fkusHprtw6e9KLtvdeAvkotiRt8gRn9hzIz2TbHU3I55bswPv0b3RRsk2fEqTrapZ6​Iqu2w8U3gp09/7QyIV2LtJC8/ltCTB7t5M15balHt32BLXNssGCyR6u2URJSk5cHPmmLVMxs94OoSZFRXNX8VGsR+QVSI1XuTuwac6ay7​TYQe2qCfeF4rWxe3lI7bAVcW1tGBk5IGiyzHy+SAZ7Hue81eEvAD8myMITqKMyhLnoU/uDscQe+8NFQKYU51EWPgr7PTRAEQTgNzR5BEAThNDR7BEEQhNPQ7BEEQRBO4+mzZ/LPg6ntj4eh08Ng3qP5wLdd/Pz3ba+f4gK/X5YRc9P+KhrJsTsnGb4jQJKz5xqEL/Tw1bMn2vkpXYWfg08O6sDssb6282j2VEkA2xyaPZ8FdvaAzy5dV5adjFW0GHGmPIutvY689JwuJtUwyU​VXUnv2MNkDMkqErrDf9WqqsRj39coDEgtEggBfBq7CaNGNEYeGE1UtFk9r8zYpIlmUZQ/YAGK03nm1S4xDnjSEr0LzO3Xckke9klrZxetKlQfvxwFWnWITXjOziMOJzkbV6a1RkHEBW/CsSdnSxGIvaYYZ20Z+rE5AgvPj8jdK3ybBtBFhNRuNo5pWbQtPGsJXoTZ73JW05NWeTh25GyKRTF2ZBx​x5loaa596viwtIflJwI4oGIS7rUuL0CTIRz6c9suWbhNyf+oqOAJnqaCcvY6/tpNCYkNc2EcaTfwNOzx77KLyuY9euCT4bES0OsCQea8OaXZHVTo0CjLa58qLkg21pFEy62qm2r4CtETi​W2rCt5ofsiigiNz84qEheGn67iDgETA4WSdelkEmeKJwq+TfgbX/v2e6IPBuM34b4tJP4DaXcAmHRtlReTwbjhSRkbO1rykYGzqtq2LbzwycK5AczbDlfkwawd3sKG0e10e3​VijDmX4XN/95jF9tWvyv4ADPHe/vsIRuR15w6anQqM3vI7G0XPAw2zTaOKFokeRraSDET8cw1yZCWfqJtS1zkwceuI9stj6Z2jN+D/e9zS68ZqsU2MnHJgYaoxpacFx8xlDS3c4uDuoKXRwoeltVlZmyxlb2+8uDEYvF254+BXU+FRflZrkuJS​gMk82/VNkiwAHcbU1MriXdNhnzlcatvNUSu+Ri/B0//fI8gCMKC73xY/zFo9giC8GHQ7PkD0OwRBEEQTkOzRxAEQTgNzR5BEAThNDR7BEEQhNPQ7BEEQRBOozx7Gu8wue9NKREz+​LjD6/LG/L1OtyDSxqxgzuqtl/k4xcRRz9wVkH5qBGx4I7YnZyP4rjsPsivmJAzbsYR8xGN2iL8/e9zPi01Uvesp4H4Ojues3nrVD/l9j9doCGGGJzw6f6HZ08NNs6fHptmzEeXvNUj/BLosXn9cGOzOK0nq4hUnBUya5SIVMM9AtGgFXLdFIYMfo6ijuEClls1unsmIMPNiZQ2XW2mNoh+ZrJJS​U8IoXaRHV2HPNVmjnwus5sWQiYJMoL22PJHUkpgoNMsW7bdWwCMQ75ovJjY5pRhxOEzagZiNKH+fWxoD​WMTmzErEhjWTYlx3ezPAUNkfF4VRRCl5RJvKBoYlp/xieitVxbvbWFCsjfToMr+x61Jz8uSm142uaBQR39pVxGrymW18P5dKw7PtRfl7rKs1Tk3shskJX26BRD​MCGLXVRcwZ7b8Ki0RiGY3SYP1VktIif2tZXFBy1wvKlTRpoYbJga7reccdWz3vjN90J75FdkVJ9q3l5r​3c8ZidYDR77CG/rrsmKWfqgkxKdGz4A8NkwF2spsV6xKfUDQ1naXFNyk57nSlNbxHfiuoebUsbqRrUy8tqVHrA0zPhedwV​99r+yJuDRftqPVbLxJemShJFnYbvesQyhh0CSkPWayJ1C/b8vQdbTZJCiom22c1YjLVKN4NFIAwHEgmwr0NtZKp3JWSXvCjJ0ba0kapSeS88ecPkTNeVvLtHCR+rdp​nu6/zUqiE7Mm+Qu1ZvecxOcOPv3BpJYa75pJDVZTjvftROngLXiy0nEBcOO50/rVJ5AMzs2Z5JsjNvNTnfdQwnc1RL570kJioi5k8rsqvD7yt3tRwNqVtQe5/bNfXXRXfnsvLyyuyaM3uWdTc7ZHXBNXaaysOLwClIS9QcS4YbjoDCKL2u02pCFgFR1NUa8RpwUK7UNCh​XW3Qdmcxdu7bu9Qvm/3UpLh8FWbJUMFkjsAFoaxTxjuQvJo1yu2kB5rz+a66s5jYe970Ge8P7RAGC8D3QcXsLnpD2Z82et2fk7​QIE4Xug4/YWPCTtz5o9giAIwjdAs0cQBEE4Dc0eQRAE4TQ0ewRBEITTKMwe8NbDNu54994dOgVBEISNKHy+x70eYv​uEuEmnIAiCsBHl7zVYVsAnp9LPQ11/xLa/e5gPWAHZgiAIwhNwy+xpLKbbyJ1YtiAIgvAEvGf2gLtDQqBZEARBeAjumj1XXDdEvyJrzB6XMBIsCIIg​PAfN/7d08jcSd2dv9kSLmj2CIAhPxvR9bsf+vYdcFARBEJ6P5ud73F98pb8Ni7ZFhNeV6Fq/cxMEQfg46HsNBEEQhNPQ7BEEQRBO4/8AmAx5M7Wlm7oAAAAASUVORK5CYII=[/img]

[Erxomai]

(14-05-2012 06:37 PM)Blood Wrote:  

(14-05-2012 11:19 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I'm reading Price's book right now. I like it a lot as it is very methodological in refuting Strobel's one-sided, evangelical look at the Bible. I wouldn't discount Price as being fringe, as his scholarship seems well grounded, with one exception that I've found. He really tries hard to date the gospels as late as possible, suggesting they very well could have been written in the 2nd Century. Most scholars, even of the liberal ilk, disagree with his dating. Among other factors to be considered, the most glaring is that Mark probably was written before 70 AD, as evidenced by the way the author makes no reference to the razing of the Jerusalem Temple. This crucial event is given mention by the other Gospel writers, showing they were written after 70 AD, as they mention the Temple having been destroyed and the Jewish people running from Jerusalem under the Roman onslaught. The other evidence is the way the Early Church Fathers are already referencing the Gospels in the early 2nd Century as if they've already been in circulation for a number of years. Other than his possible issues with dating, I think he is pretty spot on in his case against Strobel and I highly recommend checking out A Case Against A Case for Christ.

Mark is written after 70, as the "little apocalypse" of chapter 13 makes clear:

13 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, “Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”
2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”(B)
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives(C) opposite the temple, Peter, James, John(D) and Andrew asked him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you.(E) 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

Chapter 13 makes clear he wrote it in 70 but not long after. My info is from various lecture material from Dr. Dale Martin, NT Professor at Yale Divinity School in his Intro to NT course.


Now we'll look at Mark 13 and we're going to
analyze it pretty carefully. Again some of these things will come into
play. The basic message I'm saying is that people misunderstand about
Jesus is that they misunderstand the necessity of suffering that must be
there before you--must precede glory. Yes, God promises them glory,
they're going to be glorified in the end, they're going to win in the
end, but they have to go through a period of suffering. Jesus is the
first one who does this, he accepts suffering and death before he
himself is glorified but the glory will come, it has to be preceded by
suffering. But Jesus also in Mark tells the disciples over and over
again, you also will have to suffer first, but if you endure you will
experience glory also. Now look at Mark 13.

As he came out of the
temple, one of his disciples said to Him, "Look, Teacher, what large
stones and what large buildings!" Then Jesus asked him, "Do you see
these great buildings? Not one stone will be left here upon another; all
will be thrown down." [He's predicting the destruction of the temple in
Jerusalem.] When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the
temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately, "Tell us,
when will this be, and what will be the sign that all these things are
to be accomplished?" Then Jesus began to say to them, "Beware that no
one leads you astray. Many will come in my name and say, "I am he!" and
they will lead many astray.

False prophets, Jesus predicts there
will be false prophets, maybe even false Messiahs, although he doesn't
use that term here in Mark. It will occur in other places.

When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed; this must take place, but the end is still to come.

So
just when people have--when times are bad and there are wars that's not
necessarily the end yet, you've got to have a few of those.

For
nation will rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom; there will be
earthquakes in various places; there will be famines. This is but the
beginning of the birth pangs. As for yourselves, beware; for they will
hand you over to counsels; and you will be beaten in synagogues.

Again
this theme of suffering. You have all these terrible cosmic events,
terrible wars and disasters, earthquakes and all that sort of thing, but
also he says, you're going to have to suffer; they're going to hand you
over for persecution. In 13:10, "And the good news must first be
proclaimed to all nations," so Jesus is predicting that, before the end
comes, his message, the Gospel message, will be proclaimed all around.
Even though you have worse things happening, 13:12:

Brother will
betray brother to death, a father his child, and children will rise
against parents and have them put to death; and you will be hated by all
because of my name, but the one who endures to the end will be saved.

In
other words, familial divisions even, that households will be torn
apart by the suffering, by the conflict. Then 13:14, "But when you see
the desolating sacrilege set up where it ought not to be," now here's
one of those little phrases, "Let the reader understand." The author is
giving you a very, very clear clue that this is when you really better
be paying attention, "let the reader understand." "When you see the
desolating sacrilege set up where it ought not to be." Have we heard
that before? The abomination of desolation is the King James English
translation of it. The desolating sacrilege is often what is translated
in more modern Bibles; it all refers to the same language.

Where
have we heard about the abomination of desolation being set up where it
ought not to be set up before? Daniel; the words come right out of
Daniel. They occur three--Daniel was written in a combination of Hebrew
and Aramaic and this is in Greek, but this is the Greek translation. You
have it in Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31, and Daniel 12:11, so this Jesus
has read his Daniel. Then you have warnings and woes, verses 15 through
13, so you have all this stuff. What happens after that?

The one
on the housetop must not go down into house and take anything away; the
one in the field must not turn back to get the coat. Woe to those who
are pregnant, to those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that
it may not be in winter. For in those days there will be suffering such
as not had been from the beginning of creation that God . . . and never
will be. And if the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would be
saved.

Now notice, we're not getting any more historical events
here, we're not getting any more stuff happening except right then he
says, "If anyone says to you, 'Look! Here is the Messiah!' or 'Look!
There he is!'--do not believe it." False Messiahs, false prophets, so
there's more false besides false prophets. "In those days after that
suffering," now here's where you really get the cataclysmic end, the
world crashing down:

The sun will be darkened, the moon will not
give its light, and stars will fall from the skies, and the powers in
the heavens will be shaken. Then you will see the Son of Man coming in
clouds with great glory and power. Then he will send out the angels, and
gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the
ends of heaven.

When does it happen? Right after the
abomination of desolation is set up where it ought not to be. What is
the abomination of desolation? Well, we don't know. Obviously if Jesus
is reading Daniel, and this is where he's getting this, he also believes
that something's going to happen in the temple. That author Daniel
believed it was something that Antiochus IV Epiphanes may be sacrificed a
pig on the altar or he desecrated somehow the altar in the Holy of
Holies in the temple. Jesus doesn't believe that that event was the end
event as Daniel thought it was. Jesus is predicting that this is going
to happen, something's going to happen in the temple that is going to be
so awful, and it's going to be an abomination, and once that happens
then all hell breaks loose and when all hell is broken loose the worst,
then the Son of Man will swoop down in the clouds with angels and put a
stop to it all. That'll be the glorification.

When does this
happen? Well Mark has told us one thing: it's going to happen during
your own generation. Jesus has said, "This generation will not pass away
before this stuff happens." The apostles asked him, so he said, "Well
it will be within a generation. Then he says, nobody's going to know the
exact time, but once you see the abomination of desolation set up in
the temple where it ought not to be, that's when it's going to happen.
Now did this happen? Well, we're not narrated anything about it. What
does Mark not narrate in this section that we as historians know
happened with the temple? What? What does he not narrate happening? Its
destruction. Jesus predicts the destruction, Jesus prophesied about
destruction, but Mark doesn't tell us that the temple in Jerusalem are
destroyed. He doesn't tell us explicitly about the Roman armies led by
Vespasian and Titus surrounding Jerusalem and besieging it for two
years. He doesn't tell us that in the year 70, the Romans actually did
take Jerusalem and burn the temple destroy the temple.

If Mark
knew about that why didn't he tell us about it? This is why scholars--a
lot of scholars believe this is exactly like Daniel. Remember how we
said, how do you date Daniel? You figure out when does has his history
gone right? When does his history not go right anymore? If you applied
that same standard of text to this text, what you've got is a prediction
of the temple destruction, so at least the writer knows that it is
likely to happen. He can see it happening in the future but he doesn't
narrate it happening.

I think what's going on is this, let's just think
of--imagine this happening. 16:1-8 I've already read. What happens in
16:1-8? The women are told that Jesus has been raised from the dead, as
Jesus predicted he would be, and the young man tells the women, go tell
his disciples that he will go before them to Galilee, go meet him in
Galilee. In fact earlier, in Mark, in one of these sorts of passion
predictions, Jesus had told the disciples, once I'm dead I will go
before you to Galilee. Implying that they're supposed to follow him to
Galilee, but then 16:8 ends. One possible reconstruction for all of
this, and this is just an interpretation put out by some scholars,
accepted by some, rejected by a whole lot of others.

What if Mark
himself is writing right before the year 70? He knows--maybe he's even
writing in Galilee himself, or in someplace close to Galilee. He
knows--the Roman army went through Galilee first in the year 66 and 68
and destroyed lots of stuff, and they won their battles against the Jews
in Galilee first. They won through Galilee on their way to Jerusalem,
they get to Jerusalem around 68, and for two years they're besieging the
city of Jerusalem. What if Mark has written right at that time, before
Jerusalem had actually been taken, before the temple had actually been
destroyed, because he has Jesus predict, like Daniel predicted, some
abomination of desolation happening in the temple, but we don't know of
anything like that really that happened as a historical event right
then. The temple was simply destroyed by the Romans. We might think,
well maybe he thinks that they're going to set up a Roman standard there
or do something, but we're not narrated what actually happened.

In
this scenario Mark writes his Gospel with this message, "Things are
going to get a lot worse before they get better, and just like they got a
lot worse for Jesus before they got better, they're going to get a lot
worse for us before they get better." You need to be prepared, because
if you think that the Romans are going to win and we're all going to be
carried off into slavery, you don't have the right faith. Jesus told us
this. Jesus told us it wouldn't be all pie in the sky by and by, it
wouldn't be all good stuff, we're going to have to suffer just like He
suffered. He writes this Gospel message that over and over again has
Jesus saying, suffering must precede glory, suffering must precede
glory. He even has Jesus predict around the time when all this will
happen, when you see Jerusalem--if Jerusalem is surrounded by Roman
armies who are pagans, you can pretty well guess that something's going
to happen.

I believe that the Gospel of Mark may have been
written right before 70 or right around 70, but the destruction of the
temple has not sunk into consciousness yet or is not known to happen.
Maybe even Mark himself and his disciples are themselves in Galilee.
Maybe this is why he says, we're supposed to be Galilee waiting for
Jesus, and then He will appear to us. When all is worse, when it just
seems like everything couldn't get worse, I tell you he's going to come
in on the clouds and he'll destroy the Romans, and he'll set up the
Kingdom of God. If he's doing this it makes a lot of sense for the
document also ending where it ends. It says, "Tell them to go to Galilee
and wait," and Jesus goes to Galilee to meet them. In a sense, Mark's
telling his readers, all we have to do is stay here and he'll come for
us.

That's one historical reading of the Gospel of Mark that
places it in one, not provable time; some scholars believe Mark was
written in Rome. Some people believe it was written after 70. I would
say if Mark was written 70, very long after 70, I would clearly expect
him to narrate the destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of the
temple, as Luke does. When you read Luke, who used Mark as one of his
sources, you'll notice that the writer of the Gospel of Luke uses this
passage out of Mark and he edits it, to add in the destruction of the
temple before Jesus comes back. The reason? Because the writer of Luke
knew that the temple had been destroyed. Why doesn't Mark tell about it?
Because he doesn't know yet that it's been destroyed.

_____________________________

One last thing, look at Luke 21:20-27. We'll unpack a
lot of this much more--next time when we talk about both Luke and Acts
as far as what are the major thematic issues in these two. I'll start in
again next time with this, or I'll reiterate this, but just to get you
thinking look at Luke 21. Luke gets this from Mark 13. Do you remember
when we talked about how could we tell when Mark was written because it
has this abomination of desolation being set up in the temple, which
probably refers to--recalls this idea of the profanation of the temple
by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, but Mark believed it was going to happen in
the future, probably by the Romans. Right after that happens then the
Messiah comes, you have all these terrible things happen and the Messiah
comes. Luke is using Mark as his source, Mark 13, but notice how Luke
changes it. Verse 20, "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies,"
that's not in Mark.

When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies,
then know that its desolation has come near. Then those in Judea must
flee to the mountains, those inside the city must flee, for these are
the days of vengeance--

I'm going quickly through this, you'll
have to read over it yourself. Look at verse 24, "They will fall by the
edge of the sword," so the Jews will be defeated, he says. Not only do
you have Jerusalem surrounded by the Roman army, but you have them
defeated, fall by the sword. "They will be taken away as captives among
all nations." Yes, the Jews were taken as slaves to Rome, and then they
were sold off and dispersed throughout the nations as slaves. "And
Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the
Gentiles are fulfilled." None of that was in Luke's source of Mark. This
tells us that Luke is writing after the destruction of Jerusalem
because he tells you it happens. It even says that there's going to be a
time of the Gentile domination of Jerusalem. If you read on it's only
after that that you have the Messiah coming on the clouds then as--he
picks up again the story. Notice all over Luke and Acts, we can tell by
looking at his sources, his editing procedure. Luke was written sometime
after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the time he's telling this
story is here. What's that time? "the time of the Gentiles."

__________________________________________












Now
we can also see it several other times where Luke takes and changes
things. I talked about this at the very last of my session last time,
but I want to just reiterate it very quickly. Some of you, if you don't
have Throckmorton's Gospel parallels, or some other Gospel parallels,
this is why these are very useful, because I'm going to use this that
way I have Mark right here and Luke right here for the same passage and I
can compare them very, very directly, see exactly what words they have
different. If you don't have that put one of your fingers where we
talked about last time, Mark 13:14-27, and put another finger at Luke
21:20-33. And if you have Throckmorton it's paragraph 216, section 216
in Throckmorton. Look at the Mark passage first, 3:14:

"But when you see the desolating sacrilege set up where it ought not to be (let the reader understand) . . ."

And
then he says, get out of town, get out of Judea. Go to the mountains
because all hell is breaking loose anytime, and then he gives several
things that are there. If you look at Luke where Luke has a parallel in
Luke 21:20, Luke doesn't say "the desolating sacrilege," he just says,

"When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near."

There's a common wording there but it's slightly different. Then Luke also says:

"Those inside this city should leave, those out in the country should not enter it."

And then you go on. There's great distress in both places. Look at verse 21 of Mark 13:

"If anyone says to you at this time, 'Look, here's the Messiah!' or 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it."

[These
are] false prophets. Now that's also going to be in Luke but in a
totally different place that's contained in Luke 17. So Luke's using
that false prophet material but not in this context.

Then look at Mark 13:24:

"But
in those days after that suffering, the sun will be dark and the moon
will not give its light, the stars will be falling from heaven."

In
other words, after all this other stuff he's told you, that's when the
big catastrophe takes place. The sun eclipses, the stars fall from
heaven, the moon is dark. Luke also has something like that in Luke
21:25,

"There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars,
and on earth distress among nations caused by the roaring of the seas."

Luke
gives slightly different material. The problem is Luke then--yes,
notice how right after that it says--Mark has the Son of Man coming with
the clouds of glory in verse 26. Right after that you have the Son of
Man coming down, but Luke has a bunch more material and you don't get
anything until you see Luke 21:32 where he says,

"This generation
will not pass away until all things have taken place. Heaven and earth
will pass away but my words will not pass away."

Then where
does--well, I must have passed it. Where is it that Luke talks about the
time of the Gentiles? Give me the verse--24? Yes, that's right. In 24:

"There
will be great distress on earth and wrath, they will fall by the edge
of the sword and be taken away as captive among all nations. And
Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the time of the
Gentiles has been fulfilled."

Notice Luke inserts there something
that's not there in the other sources, which is that Jerusalem will be
captured, it will be destroyed, it will have a time of the Gentiles in
between. And then Luke goes on to talk about the coming of Jesus and the
very end. Again, one of these places where you can clearly see the
editorial seams of the writer and you have the time of the Gentiles. One
of the things that we've seen is that Luke is carefully constructing
his sources to make his own point.

Bottom line: The disciples ask when will the Jerusalem be destroyed? In Mark 13 Jesus shrugs his shoulders. In Luke gives details about surrounding armies and fleeing refugees.

[houseofcantor]

Gwynnies, Blood, stop making Preach have flashbacks.