The Chicken, the Egg and the Theist
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19-07-2013, 07:42 AM
The Chicken, the Egg and the Theist
Actual exchange with my theist brother:

Theist: By the way, What came first, The Chicken or the EGG?...
Survivor: The chicken came first. The egg hasn't matured sexually yet, and therefore cannot come until it reaches chicken puberty.

Theist: So the Chicken, just without, cause and effect just, "materialized." Hmmm, makes all the , "Scientific Sense," in the whole wide world...Hmmmm... Smile
Survivor: I am not an expert on the evolution of sexual reproduction. Nor am I pretending to be. "The chicken just materialized" is more in line with what you believe, remember?

Theist: No the chicken just materializing is what you believe...think about it...
we can go on and on with this...no need to...
Survivor: Of course. Let me just squeeze one comment in: there's a big difference between evolving over a period of millions of years and just "materializing one day."

A week later:
Survivor: Who was the first black man?
Theist: Is that a joke or a theological question? Or both?

Survivor: Neither.
Theist: well, why ask?

Survivor: Because it answers a question you asked earlier.
Theist: which is?

Survivor: Answer the question as honestly as you can. It's not a trap, and it's not designed to insult the Bible or anything in it. If we assume that the first humans were not "black" in the modern sense of the term, and we agree that there are black people now, it follows that there was a first black man, does it not?

Theist: get to your cynical point already...lol
Survivor: Not cynical at all.

Theist: just get to the point
Survivor: Ok. There was a first man (or woman) who would fit the modern definition of "black," right?

Theist: make your point and cut the crap. [A few minutes later] well?
Survivor: At some point in history, a point neither you nor I can pinpoint, a man or woman was born who could, for the first time, be defined as black. This person, in all likelihood, was very, very, VERY similar to his parents. But for some arbitrary reason, the child is black and the parents were not. It had to happen at some point.

Theist: i am interested in what is the point you are trying to make
Survivor: The best we can do is identify a range, even if we can't pinpoint the specific child. But logically, there had to be a point where a black child was born of non-black parents.

Theist: write your whole cynical atheistic thesis as meticulously as possible ...I have to go...I'll read it later and give you my answer...if what you wrote warrants an answer from me...chow...
Survivor: Bottom line: the first black man was born of non-black parents (and that's a hypothetical: you can't really pinpoint the birth of the first black man). In the same way, the first chicken was born of non-chickens (and that's hypothetical as well, as you cannot pinpoint the birth of the first chicken). Nonetheless, whether we're talking about a birth or a range of births, the first black man came AFTER his father impregnated his mother. Similarly, the first chicken came from an egg. Therefore:
The egg came first.

Theist: OK...Sure [Survivor] you just keep on going with your so-called highly intellectual, atheistic, gobbledeegook...I'm am quite surprised to see how a person who once believed in GOD and was a strong believer in the Virgin Born, Sinless, Crucified & Resurrected CHRIST...Has become an apologist for atheistic thought and mores...But you see, that, though sad as it may be to me...Is ok...For there are a couple of scriptures which describe your present theological state...And I need not quote them...I will say that it is a big planet, with enough space for all to live in peaceably...So you keep on being an, "intelligent," [omitting personal information]...People who say they believe in freedom of speech and religion but really don't...Especially when it comes to BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY... [Omitting personal information]
On a final note, I would appreciate it if you do not try to convert me to atheism, because I know in whom I believe...And had I been an atheist, right now I would be deceived into taking pysch meds for depression...But I don't because, GOD had not given me a spirit of fear, but of POWER & of LOVE, & of a SOUND MIND...Thank you GOD & Thank you JESUS...The King of Kings & The Lord of Lords...See Ya!...

Survivor: I was merely answering your question, so may I say it is my turn to say that I do not deserve the condescending tone of your reaction. I am not trying to convert you. You asked me a question and I answered it.
As for the things I formerly believed... I formerly believed a group of old farts in Brooklyn were the only people on earth with the integrity to correctly interpret the Bible. I used to believe that God caused it to snow in September in Ohio to confirm a promise to a small town preacher. I used to believe the Flintstones were real. I used to be 4. There's a lot of things I used to.
If you want to credit Christ for your mental stability, far be it from me to steal that from you. I'll only say this: if you need psych meds, you need them. If you don't, you don't. Either way, they are nothing to be ashamed of or "deceived" into.
I can only imagine how you would respond if I were to say "Don't try to convert me to Christianity because I'm comfortable with my atheism and if I change my mind I will need psychiatric medication." I can only IMAGINE how you would respond to that.

Theist: It would have been best if you had just written your viewpoint...From the beginning instead of piece meal tidbits...You ever notice that with your new found disbelief comes a hostility to family members, and everyone of faith...I was very tired when you started the exchange...And now I am tired...Please, there is no valuable need to play the, "verbal apologists games for and against belief in GOD." From now on, feel free to write about things we can hopefully connect with...But since a person's faith, or lack there of, shapes their world of view, it will become increasingly obvious that we will be connecting, less and less...I ask that you not email me any response to this...Feel free to write me, if you want, sometime next week...Take care...

Survivor: I will not respect the request not to reply, and I don't think I did anything inappropriate in my comments leading up to your exceedingly rude and hostile response last night. I am not the one being hostile here, YOU are. You asked me a question. I took the time to consider an adequate response and I presented that response to you. I did nothing to mock you, insult you, or disparage your religion. I merely answered the question you posed, taking seriously your reasons for posing it. In response to my answering your question, YOU lost your composure. So ignore that finger you're pointing at me and take a good hard look at the three pointing back at yourself.


Some people.
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19-07-2013, 07:50 AM
RE: The Chicken, the Egg and the Theist
(19-07-2013 07:42 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  Actual exchange with my theist brother:

Theist: By the way, What came first, The Chicken or the EGG?...
Survivor: The chicken came first. The egg hasn't matured sexually yet, and therefore cannot come until it reaches chicken puberty.

I disagree. The egg.





"Life is a daring adventure or it is nothing"--Helen Keller
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19-07-2013, 08:05 AM
RE: The Chicken, the Egg and the Theist
As you can see from how the discussion progressed (while it was still progressing, anyway), that is essentially the argument that I made.
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19-07-2013, 08:21 AM
RE: The Chicken, the Egg and the Theist
I'm almost embarrassed for my brother, looking at how he launched into a personal attack and then had the unmitigated gall to accuse ME of hostility when I responded (without insulting him or his faith, mind you).
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19-07-2013, 08:44 AM
RE: The Chicken, the Egg and the Theist
(19-07-2013 07:42 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  "Theist: write your whole cynical atheistic thesis"
"you just keep on going with your so-called highly intellectual, atheistic, gobbledeegook"
"And had I been an atheist, right now I would be deceived into taking pysch meds for depression"

How boring. Question their garbage, and you are a cynical hater.
Interesting he's admitted he NEEDS his convoluted gigantic crutch system, as a substitute for meds for depression.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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19-07-2013, 02:12 PM
RE: The Chicken, the Egg and the Theist
I have to stop looking at this exchange because it gets me more and more upset every time I read it.
Am I missing something? He's the one who comes out swinging, accusing me of cynicism. Then he reveals the bigotry behind his attack, calling my point "cynical [and] atheistic" before he even knows what it is. Then he ignores my point entirely, insults my intelligence, and glibly references what the Bible says about people like me (as if I'm not supposed to be insulted by the Bible's words because he didn't actually quote them), and then, and then, AND THEN....


accused ME of being hostile! F### you, bro!
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20-07-2013, 04:53 AM
RE: The Chicken, the Egg and the Theist
Hey Survivor, I've now fully read through the exchange with your brother twice, and it is a little saddening.

I thought it was interesting that he said, "I would appreciate it if you do not try to convert me to atheism, because I know in whom I believe"

The fact you describe yourself as an atheist could be a source of hostility, and after all, there is no evidence against his god. I've got a hunch, which you may or may not reject, but if you were to describe yourself as an agnostic anti-theist, perhaps he would view you differently?

Of course, in a scientific sense, there is no god, as there are no fairies, and no unicorns, the burden of proof should be with the believer, and as this is "The Thinking Atheist" forum, this may not be the best place to argue for agnosticism over atheism! But it's just a suggestion.

Anyway, you could perhaps make an argument for being an anti-theist based on historical events? Also, given a good argument, your brother may be more likely to admit to being an agnostic himself, rather than totally rejecting his god (i.e. being an atheist).
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20-07-2013, 01:45 PM
RE: The Chicken, the Egg and the Theist
Oi...

Y'know... I just don't get why theists are against science.

YEC didn't exist until the 1800s... before that there was no conflict between science and Christianity.

YECs created and dug their own grave.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
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22-07-2013, 08:37 AM
RE: The Chicken, the Egg and the Theist
6.9 Agnostic,

I reject any assertion that I was hostile in that interaction in any way. You might make the argument that I was hostile BEFORE the segment quoted (there was a reason for it, but I'll concede that point). The passage of a week without hostility and the content of the interaction itself shows quite plainly that the hostility in this interaction came toward me at all points, and from me at none. To be blunt, I'm a little bit tired of my holier-than-thou family approaching me with unbridled hostility and then calling ME hostile when I point it out to them. I refuse to back down in opposing this hypocritical double standard.

KC, Young Earth Creationism far, far predates the 1800s. I don't know where you got that factoid from, but it's not correct.
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22-07-2013, 08:45 AM
RE: The Chicken, the Egg and the Theist
(22-07-2013 08:37 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  I reject any assertion that I was hostile in that interaction in any way. You might make the argument that I was hostile BEFORE the segment quoted (there was a reason for it, but I'll concede that point). The passage of a week without hostility and the content of the interaction itself shows quite plainly that the hostility in this interaction came toward me at all points, and from me at none. To be blunt, I'm a little bit tired of my holier-than-thou family approaching me with unbridled hostility and then calling ME hostile when I point it out to them. I refuse to back down in opposing this hypocritical double standard.

Oh, you were polite and reasonable, as far as the (reproduced) exchange goes. I'd say there's one in every family, but it seems your luck is much, much worse than to be stuck with just one...

(22-07-2013 08:37 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  KC, Young Earth Creationism far, far predates the 1800s. I don't know where you got that factoid from, but it's not correct.

It's... sort of true that it's a recent device. But only insofar as the science contradicting it needed to be discovered first, before it could become a separate ideology!

... this is my signature!
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