The Christian Churches are lying to us?
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04-11-2014, 02:56 PM
The Christian Churches are lying to us?
Just finished listening to podcast #101 on this site who had Richard Carrier as a guest. One interesting statement that Richard makes in the podcast is that much of the views in mainstream scholarship observed in academia is significantly different than what we are taught within our churches by priests and pastors. He indicates that many of the widespread views that question the divinity of Jesus and the historical accuracy of much of the bible is taught in the seminaries; however, it's not disseminated to the unwashed masses. Clearly, the historical/archaeological/linguistic studies are not being suppressed by the churches since it seems like you can find some of this stuff out readily enough. However, the majority of people within the churches are not seeking out whether the things they are told are true or not. I've also seen some other sources indicating that this type of stuff is happening.

I'm guessing that there is a quiet revolution going on where more and more of this info is coming out into the open - especially for people 30 and under who are going to university or has recently graduated from universities. I'm in my 40s and never really encountered this type of information about biblical and religious studies when I was in school - although I was in the sciences and engineering schools so I never was required to take those types of courses. Plus the internet allows info to flow a lot more than it used to.

I have a range of emotions over this TBH. It seems like we're being purposefully lied to. Maybe it's done with the best of intentions, maybe people are doing it on "good faith" since a number of hypotheses fly in the face of accepted dogma, or maybe it's because people want to keep the religions going due to vested interests of those who are still in charge. Anyone feeling cheated? All I know is that I need to dig deeper into all of this.
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04-11-2014, 03:04 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
I believe it's true that at least some must be lying to us. Today, there is too much information available. Christian leaders can't simply ignore the information when atheists are pointing it out. So they have to answer which means they have to vet the information. So at least some of them read the same things we read and so they must know.

Motivations? Some probably do believe they are lying for a greater good whether it's because a) they continue to believe despite obvious evidence to the contrary or b) they believe churches improve morality, provide social supports, etc. And, of course, there are likely some dishonest ones too that just want to keep passing the collection plates.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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04-11-2014, 03:07 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
I believe the information was/is withheld on purpose. It is easy, because most people do not want to know more that what they hear on Sunday anyway. I dug into this stuff on my own and the more I found out, the less I believed.
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04-11-2014, 03:29 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
That is true, that academia looks at higher criticism and historical criticism differently than say, evangelical churches. But it is not always true that it's kept from pulpits intentionally. I would say it's far more often ignorance of the academic positions than sheer avoidance.

At my church, we often talk about such things in small groups or even in sermons. Why might we follow the NASB as more accurate than the RSV Bible, for example. Or on what bases is the resurrection of Jesus supported or unsupported by scholars, archaeology, writing of the contemporaries of Jesus in the Bible and outside it, etc.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-11-2014, 04:22 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
More than likely.
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04-11-2014, 06:58 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
When you take away a historical jesus, you rip out the heart of christianity.

If christians found out that they have been intentionally lied to about the very core of their beliefs, they would burn their churches down.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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04-11-2014, 07:17 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(04-11-2014 06:58 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  When you take away a historical jesus, you rip out the heart of christianity.

If christians found out that they have been intentionally lied to about the very core of their beliefs, they would burn their churches down.

I find it more likely they'd just add find some way to wave away this revelation and go right the hell on believing as always.

Just me, though.Drinking Beverage

Popcorn I put more thought into fiction than theists put into reality.
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04-11-2014, 09:03 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(04-11-2014 02:56 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  I have a range of emotions over this TBH. It seems like we're being purposefully lied to. Maybe it's done with the best of intentions, maybe people are doing it on "good faith" since a number of hypotheses fly in the face of accepted dogma, or maybe it's because people want to keep the religions going due to vested interests of those who are still in charge. Anyone feeling cheated? All I know is that I need to dig deeper into all of this.

It would depend on the type of Church, liberal to mainline protestant churches typically incorporate much of this scholarship into their teachings, sermons etc... This can be said about some catholic theologians and ministers as well.

And the evangelical churches only incorporates the views of evangelical to conservative scholars. These traditions have a general mistrust of scholars who belong to other traditions than their own, and have as much respect for their views on the subject, as they do about their theology, and churches don't typically share opposing views, unless it was in some apologetic lesson or something.

I don't see how it's lying, anymore so than them not sharing an atheistic perspective on their religion is not lying. Why share views which you hold as false?
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04-11-2014, 09:07 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(04-11-2014 06:58 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  When you take away a historical jesus, you rip out the heart of christianity.

Possibly, but lucky for the church no one including scholars take non-historicity seriously, it's more or less the the fringe loony view among scholars.
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04-11-2014, 10:02 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(04-11-2014 09:03 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-11-2014 02:56 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  I have a range of emotions over this TBH. It seems like we're being purposefully lied to. Maybe it's done with the best of intentions, maybe people are doing it on "good faith" since a number of hypotheses fly in the face of accepted dogma, or maybe it's because people want to keep the religions going due to vested interests of those who are still in charge. Anyone feeling cheated? All I know is that I need to dig deeper into all of this.

It would depend on the type of Church, liberal to mainline protestant churches typically incorporate much of this scholarship into their teachings, sermons etc... This can be said about some catholic theologians and ministers as well.

And the evangelical churches only incorporates the views of evangelical to conservative scholars. These traditions have a general mistrust of scholars who belong to other traditions than their own, and have as much respect for their views on the subject, as they do about their theology, and churches don't typically share opposing views, unless it was in some apologetic lesson or something.

I don't see how it's lying, anymore so than them not sharing an atheistic perspective on their religion is not lying. Why share views which you hold as false?

Maybe among the evangelical communities where you will find pastors who don't come from a seminary that presents biblical history that has been rigorously studied by people with real qualifications to study the data accurately. But IMHO a number of churches DO have people who have seen the studies. I think it's commonly accepted that the Israelites were NOT a nation of people enslaved in Egypt and that their actual origins were from the Canaanite peoples - not outsiders who were given a promised land.

I know a lot of people debate whether Jesus existed or not. I'm completely fine with accepting that Jesus was an historical figure. There seems to be enough evidence to indicate that he existed as a real person. However, what should make Christians take pause is the notion that Jesus was said to have spoken about Moses and the Exodus a number of times in the gospels. If in fact the Exodus never happened and that Moses did not exist nor really wrote the Torah, and it has been written that God cannot be deceived nor deceive, then it turns into a contradiction because it appears that Jesus would have been deceitful if he was talking about the passover as a fact of history when it was not. it seems like this is a pretty important piece of knowledge to have. Yet you get silence from the churches on it.
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