The Christian Churches are lying to us?
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04-11-2014, 10:43 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(04-11-2014 10:02 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Maybe among the evangelical communities where you will find pastors who don't come from a seminary that presents biblical history that has been rigorously studied by people with real qualifications to study the data accurately. But IMHO a number of churches DO have people who have seen the studies.

Every evangelical pastor I know, and can think of came out evangelical seminaries, who endorse the evangelical position, such as Westminster Seminary, in which all faculty member's have to agree to the seminaries core beliefs, such as the infallibility of scripture.

Quote:I think it's commonly accepted that the Israelites were NOT a nation of people enslaved in Egypt and that their actual origins were from the Canaanite peoples - not outsiders who were given a promised land.

Commonly accepted by non-evangelical scholars, while evangelical scholars would likely disagree with much of what you said.

Quote:However, what should make Christians take pause is the notion that Jesus was said to have spoken about Moses and the Exodus a number of times in the gospels. If in fact the Exodus never happened and that Moses did not exist nor really wrote the Torah,

I think you'd be hard pressed to find conservative, or evangelical scholars who believe Moses didn't exist, or that the Exodus didn't take place, in fact you likely won't find an evangelical or conservative seminary that endorses this view either.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1998...ml?start=2

Quote: Yet you get silence from the churches on it.

Churches teach the views they endorse and hold, they don't teach the controversy, or the views of scholars who belong to traditions themselves reject.
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04-11-2014, 11:13 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(04-11-2014 10:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Every evangelical pastor I know, and can think of came out evangelical seminaries, who endorse the evangelical position, such as Westminster Seminary, in which all faculty member's have to agree to the seminaries core beliefs, such as the infallibility of scripture.

Well, there's your problem.

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Too true AronRa, too true...

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05-11-2014, 07:57 AM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(04-11-2014 02:56 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Clearly, the historical/archaeological/linguistic studies are not being suppressed by the churches since it seems like you can find some of this stuff out readily enough. However, the majority of people within the churches are not seeking out whether the things they are told are true or not. I've also seen some other sources indicating that this type of stuff is happening.

I think it depends. I'm sure there's some "lying for Jesus" going on in some circles, but I'm sure most people just consider it "off topic". When the sermon is about how to properly love your neighbor or gay marriage, the pastor isn't particularly concerned with whether or not some shit was added to the end of the Gospel of Mark to make the ending more palatable.


(04-11-2014 02:56 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  I'm guessing that there is a quiet revolution going on where more and more of this info is coming out into the open - especially for people 30 and under who are going to university or has recently graduated from universities. I'm in my 40s and never really encountered this type of information about biblical and religious studies when I was in school - although I was in the sciences and engineering schools so I never was required to take those types of courses. Plus the internet allows info to flow a lot more than it used to.

I think this is part of where conservatives will get the basis of "liberal indoctrination" at universities. I've talked to several fundies who would say "No offense, but you've been taught the wrong things". It certainly makes it easier to deal with the facts when you can dismiss them.

Now, I do think this information is coming out more and more. From a survival standpoint for the churches, it's probably in their best interest to be proactive about this and to work it into sermons, Bible studies, and other curriculum. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing, and people are great at coming up with apologetics to shoehorn Christianity into any given world view. Hell, my wife's church is like this in many ways. There's a good chunk of one service that already knows all of these things. They understand the influences of Zoroastrianism on Christianity and Judaism, and they are still nominally Christian.

One nice thing I see from all of this: I do think that over the next generation, and certainly the next two, fundamentalism will finally be regarded as a lunatic fringe.
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05-11-2014, 03:44 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(04-11-2014 10:43 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think you'd be hard pressed to find conservative, or evangelical scholars who believe Moses didn't exist, or that the Exodus didn't take place, in fact you likely won't find an evangelical or conservative seminary that endorses this view either.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1998...ml?start=2

Interesting that you link an article that gets to the cusp of telling us why we shouldn't worry about the lack of archaeological evidence.... and then requires us to subscribe to read the rest of the article. Do you work for "Christianity Today"?
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06-11-2014, 11:04 AM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(05-11-2014 07:57 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(04-11-2014 02:56 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Clearly, the historical/archaeological/linguistic studies are not being suppressed by the churches since it seems like you can find some of this stuff out readily enough. However, the majority of people within the churches are not seeking out whether the things they are told are true or not. I've also seen some other sources indicating that this type of stuff is happening.

I think it depends. I'm sure there's some "lying for Jesus" going on in some circles, but I'm sure most people just consider it "off topic". When the sermon is about how to properly love your neighbor or gay marriage, the pastor isn't particularly concerned with whether or not some shit was added to the end of the Gospel of Mark to make the ending more palatable.


(04-11-2014 02:56 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  I'm guessing that there is a quiet revolution going on where more and more of this info is coming out into the open - especially for people 30 and under who are going to university or has recently graduated from universities. I'm in my 40s and never really encountered this type of information about biblical and religious studies when I was in school - although I was in the sciences and engineering schools so I never was required to take those types of courses. Plus the internet allows info to flow a lot more than it used to.

I think this is part of where conservatives will get the basis of "liberal indoctrination" at universities. I've talked to several fundies who would say "No offense, but you've been taught the wrong things". It certainly makes it easier to deal with the facts when you can dismiss them.

Now, I do think this information is coming out more and more. From a survival standpoint for the churches, it's probably in their best interest to be proactive about this and to work it into sermons, Bible studies, and other curriculum. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing, and people are great at coming up with apologetics to shoehorn Christianity into any given world view. Hell, my wife's church is like this in many ways. There's a good chunk of one service that already knows all of these things. They understand the influences of Zoroastrianism on Christianity and Judaism, and they are still nominally Christian.

One nice thing I see from all of this: I do think that over the next generation, and certainly the next two, fundamentalism will finally be regarded as a lunatic fringe.

I would modify the fundie statement there, for me personally, to "I am aware of what many liberal Christians and academics teach and I think there are good counters to many of their stances. The Bible says that, and logic agrees that...

That's different then "You done got schooled wrong," isn't it?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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06-11-2014, 04:04 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(04-11-2014 06:58 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If christians found out that they have been intentionally lied to about the very core of their beliefs, they would burn their churches down.
If history has taught us anything it's that believers are much more likely to burn the truth to preserve their church.
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06-11-2014, 10:43 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(06-11-2014 04:04 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(04-11-2014 06:58 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If christians found out that they have been intentionally lied to about the very core of their beliefs, they would burn their churches down.
If history has taught us anything it's that believers are much more likely to burn the truth to preserve their church.

That would be my thoughts, but it's impossible in today's world. I loathe any notion that ideas and writings are lost to history because they are deemed controversial.
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07-11-2014, 03:53 AM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(04-11-2014 02:56 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Just finished listening to podcast #101 on this site who had Richard Carrier as a guest. One interesting statement that Richard makes in the podcast is that much of the views in mainstream scholarship observed in academia is significantly different than what we are taught within our churches by priests and pastors. He indicates that many of the widespread views that question the divinity of Jesus and the historical accuracy of much of the bible is taught in the seminaries; however, it's not disseminated to the unwashed masses. Clearly, the historical/archaeological/linguistic studies are not being suppressed by the churches since it seems like you can find some of this stuff out readily enough. However, the majority of people within the churches are not seeking out whether the things they are told are true or not. I've also seen some other sources indicating that this type of stuff is happening.

I'm guessing that there is a quiet revolution going on where more and more of this info is coming out into the open - especially for people 30 and under who are going to university or has recently graduated from universities. I'm in my 40s and never really encountered this type of information about biblical and religious studies when I was in school - although I was in the sciences and engineering schools so I never was required to take those types of courses. Plus the internet allows info to flow a lot more than it used to.

I have a range of emotions over this TBH. It seems like we're being purposefully lied to. Maybe it's done with the best of intentions, maybe people are doing it on "good faith" since a number of hypotheses fly in the face of accepted dogma, or maybe it's because people want to keep the religions going due to vested interests of those who are still in charge. Anyone feeling cheated? All I know is that I need to dig deeper into all of this.

"It seems like we're being purposefully lied to."

YEP.

" Maybe it's done with the best of intentions,"

Ah...NO.

Do you think McDonald's sell hamburgers to improve children's health?
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07-11-2014, 08:37 AM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(06-11-2014 11:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I would modify the fundie statement there, for me personally, to "I am aware of what many liberal Christians and academics teach and I think there are good counters to many of their stances. The Bible says that, and logic agrees that...

Well, note that many of the "liberal" Christians are taking their stance from more secular sources, and trying to get those to jive with what they see in their religion. So, if a person says they don't believe in a literal interpretation of the events in Genesis and give scientific reasons for their belief, your statements of "Yeah, but the Bible says..." are going to fall flat. No one is arguing what the Bible does or doesn't say; they're likely arguing if it should be taken literally.

You can't always point to the Bible and expect your particular reading of it to be taken as a slam-dunk argument by everyone else. Point in case: thousands of different Christian sects currently in existence.


(06-11-2014 11:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  That's different then "You done got schooled wrong," isn't it?

What do you mean?
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10-11-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
Hi all,

Yes, the Roman Catholic Church has killed fundies, prohibited Bible study, etc., yes. Beware!

Yes, there are thousands of different sects. In history, someone told me there are over 16,000 sects. Something like 15,998, however, read the Bible for themselves and concluded salvation is via faith and not good deeds/good works. We need to start there. Salvation comes via trusting in Heavenly Father through His Son.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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