The Christian Churches are lying to us?
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13-11-2014, 02:50 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(13-11-2014 02:24 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I hear you but I would disagree with that. Case in point. Not one person at this forum, Xian or atheist, would interpret the NT to say that Paul said Jesus had NOT risen from the dead.

We would all agree that of the interpretations Paul taught the resurrection and Paul did not teach a resurrection of Jesus, that one of those interpretations is a person or person(s) being deliberately misleading about the plain sense reading of the text. Do you agree?

On that issue, perhaps, but that doesn't mean there aren't other contradictions. It's not like sect A and sect B need to disagree on every single way that something can be interpreted. Many differ in literally only one or two ways. The point is, if any given topic can be found to have verses both supporting and refuting it, you're dealing with the principle of explosion, which basically leads to cherry picking.
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13-11-2014, 03:00 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(13-11-2014 02:50 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 02:24 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I hear you but I would disagree with that. Case in point. Not one person at this forum, Xian or atheist, would interpret the NT to say that Paul said Jesus had NOT risen from the dead.

We would all agree that of the interpretations Paul taught the resurrection and Paul did not teach a resurrection of Jesus, that one of those interpretations is a person or person(s) being deliberately misleading about the plain sense reading of the text. Do you agree?

On that issue, perhaps, but that doesn't mean there aren't other contradictions. It's not like sect A and sect B need to disagree on every single way that something can be interpreted. Many differ in literally only one or two ways. The point is, if any given topic can be found to have verses both supporting and refuting it, you're dealing with the principle of explosion, which basically leads to cherry picking.

For years, I have worked with Christians outside my church to build coherence and cohesion with others. I am yet to find a topic with verses "both supporting it and refuting it". After a few hundred doctrines have been studied, I find the Bible univocal on doctrines to date.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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13-11-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(13-11-2014 03:00 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 02:50 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  On that issue, perhaps, but that doesn't mean there aren't other contradictions. It's not like sect A and sect B need to disagree on every single way that something can be interpreted. Many differ in literally only one or two ways. The point is, if any given topic can be found to have verses both supporting and refuting it, you're dealing with the principle of explosion, which basically leads to cherry picking.

For years, I have worked with Christians outside my church to build coherence and cohesion with others. I am yet to find a topic with verses "both supporting it and refuting it". After a few hundred doctrines have been studied, I find the Bible univocal on doctrines to date.

Faith vs. works. Religious schisms have occurred over this exact issue, and you can find numerous Bible verses to support either position (salvation by faith alone, or salvation by works alone).

Total revenge ("an eye for an eye", etc., and many other places in the Old Testament) vs. total forgiveness ("turn the other cheek", and most of the New Testament in general).

And if I were feeling a bit more energetic, I could find plenty of others. But those two (especially the first one, which is a famously divisive issue) should suffice for now.
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13-11-2014, 04:04 PM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(13-11-2014 03:41 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 03:00 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  For years, I have worked with Christians outside my church to build coherence and cohesion with others. I am yet to find a topic with verses "both supporting it and refuting it". After a few hundred doctrines have been studied, I find the Bible univocal on doctrines to date.

Faith vs. works. Religious schisms have occurred over this exact issue, and you can find numerous Bible verses to support either position (salvation by faith alone, or salvation by works alone).

Total revenge ("an eye for an eye", etc., and many other places in the Old Testament) vs. total forgiveness ("turn the other cheek", and most of the New Testament in general).

And if I were feeling a bit more energetic, I could find plenty of others. But those two (especially the first one, which is a famously divisive issue) should suffice for now.

208 different ways to salvation
some of them contradictory. It just requires the correct interpretation! But that's the problem, there is no correct interpretation of the bible.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-11-2014, 08:20 AM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(13-11-2014 03:00 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  For years, I have worked with Christians outside my church to build coherence and cohesion with others. I am yet to find a topic with verses "both supporting it and refuting it". After a few hundred doctrines have been studied, I find the Bible univocal on doctrines to date.

Are you allowed to eat bacon and shellfish?

Not all Christians feel this is permissible because the Bible explicitly forbids it. Sure, you can get into the issue of separating the laws of Leviticus into civil, moral, and ritual laws, but it's not like they're explicitly listed that way in the Bible. That justifications requires some measure of... interpretation.
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14-11-2014, 08:24 AM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2014 08:28 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(13-11-2014 03:00 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I find the Bible univocal on doctrines to date.

How would you reconcile the Pentecostal doctrine that holds baptism to be unnecessary for salvation with the Baptist doctrine that it is necessary for salvation?

This also gets back to a primary issue that was never resolved in the bible, does it take an act (baptism) or does it only take faith to gain salvation?

We're back to subjective and unprovable assertions and opinions.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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17-11-2014, 09:47 AM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(13-11-2014 03:41 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 03:00 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  For years, I have worked with Christians outside my church to build coherence and cohesion with others. I am yet to find a topic with verses "both supporting it and refuting it". After a few hundred doctrines have been studied, I find the Bible univocal on doctrines to date.

Faith vs. works. Religious schisms have occurred over this exact issue, and you can find numerous Bible verses to support either position (salvation by faith alone, or salvation by works alone).

Total revenge ("an eye for an eye", etc., and many other places in the Old Testament) vs. total forgiveness ("turn the other cheek", and most of the New Testament in general).

And if I were feeling a bit more energetic, I could find plenty of others. But those two (especially the first one, which is a famously divisive issue) should suffice for now.

Note that Christian denominations don't say "you need only faith and also, you might need some works" - they have differing interpretations of either faith alone and faith and works. I would still say the Bible is univocal on this issue and so would any fundamentalist who took the opposite doctrine also.

It's not total revenge vs. total forgiveness. An eye for an eye both limits the amount of punishment and prevents vendettas of revenge as in the ANE--you killed my brother so I'll kill your whole family. Turn the other cheek has to do with insults and persecution and does not change or touch on other NT scriptures that advocate punishment for crime and self-defense against physical attacks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-11-2014, 09:48 AM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(14-11-2014 08:20 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 03:00 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  For years, I have worked with Christians outside my church to build coherence and cohesion with others. I am yet to find a topic with verses "both supporting it and refuting it". After a few hundred doctrines have been studied, I find the Bible univocal on doctrines to date.

Are you allowed to eat bacon and shellfish?

Not all Christians feel this is permissible because the Bible explicitly forbids it. Sure, you can get into the issue of separating the laws of Leviticus into civil, moral, and ritual laws, but it's not like they're explicitly listed that way in the Bible. That justifications requires some measure of... interpretation.

Are you saying the Bible expressly forbids pork and shellfish for Gentiles? No Jew or Christian would agree with you.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-11-2014, 09:50 AM
RE: The Christian Churches are lying to us?
(14-11-2014 08:24 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 03:00 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I find the Bible univocal on doctrines to date.

How would you reconcile the Pentecostal doctrine that holds baptism to be unnecessary for salvation with the Baptist doctrine that it is necessary for salvation?

This also gets back to a primary issue that was never resolved in the bible, does it take an act (baptism) or does it only take faith to gain salvation?

We're back to subjective and unprovable assertions and opinions.

Note I didn't say all Christians find the Bible univocal on doctrine. There are some Christians who would say the Bible has errors and etc. I said I find it univocal. Also, it is not a Baptist doctrine that baptism is necessary for salvation. It is a symbol for Baptists. Nor do all Pentecostals believe it is unneeded for salvation!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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