The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
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02-01-2014, 05:22 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(01-01-2014 08:07 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(30-12-2013 07:36 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Alla, were you raised Mormon?

If not, in what religion were you raised? When and why did you convert?
I was raised an Atheist. I was born in atheist country-former Soviet Union, specifically Kiev Ukraine.
I became a believer while lived in Soviet Union. I received a revelation from God.
Please don't laugh. If I am delusional then let it be. I just can not deny my own experience. If I am wrong let it be because only good things followed this.
So, I knew that there is God(from the revelation) but then I wanted to know more about Him. But nothing happen, no more revelations, nothing about any religions or churches. I attended some evangelical churches. They were OK. Nice people.
10 years ago LDS missionaries nocked on my door. Everything what they taught me was like something that I was looking for for a long time.
I prayed and I received more revelations from God. This is how I know that Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ is true and His Church is true. This is how I was converted.
P.S. Because I was an Atheist I understand Atheists and I don't judge them in any way.
My father was an Atheist. He also was a scientist. He was good mathematician and programmer. He worked on theory of graphs and theory of simple numbers.
Last years of his life he worked on theory of field. They built time machine and they worked with radioactive samples from Chernobyl(were it was explosion in 1986). Explosion was either on my birthday April 27th or April 26th. I remember that time very good. It was kind of scary. Chernobyl is 100 km from Kiev. They washed streets every day, people were taking shower every time they got home from the street. Everybody had those special meters to check radiation level. And we were drinking red wine "Caberne" every day (supposedly it helped).

Could it not be all of the good things you are, that you think and feel, coupled with your desire to be a good person be from YOU? As in, you think it's god telling you to be decent but it's actually internal? This is a genuine question mate.

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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02-01-2014, 06:44 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(02-01-2014 05:14 AM)morondog Wrote:  EK, you get a stocking fulla coal for Christmas ? 'Cos you're grumpier than I remember Tongue

Close proximity to plastic baby Jesus' makes me irritable.

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02-01-2014, 10:13 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(01-01-2014 08:07 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(30-12-2013 07:36 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Alla, were you raised Mormon?

If not, in what religion were you raised? When and why did you convert?
I was raised an Atheist. I was born in atheist country-former Soviet Union, specifically Kiev Ukraine.
I became a believer while lived in Soviet Union. I received a revelation from God.
Please don't laugh. If I am delusional then let it be. I just can not deny my own experience.

I'm not laughing, but I was curious as to why you came to believe what you do. I was raised Lutheran, so it took me a long time to be able to consider anything else.

So, how did you receive your revelation from God? Were you conscious or sleeping? Was if something obvious and conspicuous, or something more vague, like a feeling?

I mean, yeah, I don't believe in any of this any more (I never had any profound revelations when I did), but I'm just curious. My wife claims to know God exists because she can "feel" him, but doesn't claim to have any specific revelations.
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02-01-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(02-01-2014 05:22 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Could it not be all of the good things you are, that you think and feel, coupled with your desire to be a good person be from YOU?
Of course it is from me. It has to be from me. But when I feel influence of the Holy Ghost desire to do good is magnified even more.

(02-01-2014 05:22 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  As in, you think it's god telling you to be decent but it's actually internal? This is a genuine question mate.
You are kind of right about internal thing. I have spirit body inside of my physical body. Spirit(Holy Ghost) speaks to my spirit.
For example, I have some questions, I get some answers. Then it happens(in the future) I find out that they are true.
First Spirit testifies to me then later I am learning the same thing from another source.
This way my faith is growing.
And there is influence of the Holy Ghost. I can not explain it. But it is very convincing and very impressive.
P.S. This is my genuine answer. Genuine question deserves genuine answer.

English is not my native language.
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02-01-2014, 03:59 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(02-01-2014 10:13 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I'm not laughing, but I was curious as to why you came to believe what you do. I was raised Lutheran, so it took me a long time to be able to consider anything else.

So, how did you receive your revelation from God? Were you conscious or sleeping? Was if something obvious and conspicuous, or something more vague, like a feeling?

I mean, yeah, I don't believe in any of this any more (I never had any profound revelations when I did), but I'm just curious. My wife claims to know God exists because she can "feel" him, but doesn't claim to have any specific revelations.
I was not asleep. I was awake. I was an atheist and next moment I was not any more.
This experience is very sacred. Sacred experience is not something I would share with everybody. Personal revelation suppose to remain personal.
And it is a gift. If one day you have the same experience you will know that there is God.
There is a reason why some people never have this kind of experiences.
But I really want to tell you something and what is true:
1)God Heavenly Father loves all His children
2)All people will have an opportunity to come to Christ
3)There is no one heaven and one hell.
4)Atheists will not burn in hell
But all people will be judged according to their works. And all people will be rewarded for their good hearts and deeds.
5)Families can be together forever.
6)All people will be saved from physical death(hell).
7)God is not only Justice(punishment) He is also Mercy(salvation)
8)Do good to all people especially to your family and you will be just fine.

English is not my native language.
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02-01-2014, 04:04 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Alla

Please can you go into more depth about the nature of your "revelation" ?

- How do you know it was revelation ??? (an epistemological question - how do you validate it is revelation not fantasy, hallucination, lucidity dreaming....etc)

-If it was revelation how do you know it was the source you identify ? i.e God, how do you know its not a spirit, demon, psychological entity, disembodied ghost or something else ? (not assuming they exist but what you believe to exist)

-Why do you think you received this revelation ?

-Have you ever taken mind altering substances, especially those which induce lucid dreaming - what is the difference in the experience between a powerful lucid dream and your revelation ? (if your not an experienced lucid dreamer ignore this question)

I ask because I personally have experience in various altered states and want to understand your testimony as best as can be understood by another without being too judgmental.
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02-01-2014, 04:04 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(02-01-2014 05:05 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I find it highly unlikely that your father, as a mathematician, ever simply relied upon a feeling or divine revelation to answer a problem in his work. Because in mathematics (much like the rest of science), it is not enough to simply believe or feel that you are right; you have to show it.
He was an Atheist. His rule number one was:
first be skeptical.

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02-01-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(02-01-2014 04:04 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Alla

Please can you go into more depth about the nature of your "revelation" ?

- How do you know it was revelation ??? (an epistemological question - how do you validate it is revelation not fantasy, hallucination, lucidity dreaming....etc)

-If it was revelation how do you know it was the source you identify ? i.e God, how do you know its not a spirit, demon, psychological entity, disembodied ghost or something else ? (not assuming they exist but what you believe to exist)

-Why do you think you received this revelation ?

-Have you ever taken mind altering substances, especially those which induce lucid dreaming - what is the difference in the experience between a powerful lucid dream and your revelation ? (if your not an experienced lucid dreamer ignore this question)

I ask because I personally have experience in various altered states and want to understand your testimony as best as can be understood by another without being too judgmental.
I am very sorry. I can not do this. Just forget about it. It is not important to anybody but me.
I only wanted to answer a question without going into details.
I am not trying to convince anybody to believe in God. This in not my business - to convert people.
The only thing I will tell why I know it was not evil spirit and how do I know that it is from God.
1)I assume it is OK for evil spirit if I remain to be an atheist.
2)If I follow evil spirit then I will have bad fruits ( consequence).
3)I don't know how I know that it is from God(I've never seen Him) I just know it.
This is the fact: I was an atheist and next moment I knew that Christ is real.
I know that He lives. I can not change this - the fact that I was an atheist and became a theist. I don't even know how?
May be if a mortal person(flesh and blood) convinced me that there is God it would be easier for me to stop believing in God.

English is not my native language.
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02-01-2014, 04:23 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Quote:There is a reason why some people never have this kind of experiences.
But I really want to tell you something and what is true:

Quote:1)God Heavenly Father loves all His children

God as heavenly father actually despises His children, so much so that every 45 seconds a child dies of malaria. Gods actions show He loves the plasmodium parasite and gives it salvation by survival of the fittest when using little human children and mosquito's as host vectors - basically tools for making more plasmodiums !!! HoboEvil_monster
conclusion - God is a mass child slaughterer torturer gulag concentration camp boss !!!

Quote:2)All people will have an opportunity to come to Christ
Those little kiddies dying from Malaria fever don't exactly get an opportunity to come close to Christ as they perish in feverish agony as God helps those plasmodium's multiply in their livers and blood stream.

I don't have an opportunity to get close to Christ because I think the story is man made nonsense & quite absurd. SUrely a God would not hold me responsible for not believing a story that reads more like a legend ?

Quote: 3)There is no one heaven and one hell.

We have no evidence for either.

Quote:4)Atheists will not burn in hell
But all people will be judged according to their works. And all people will be rewarded for their good hearts and deeds.

In that case we can make do with secular humanism and don't need Christianity - fine with me.

Quote:5)Families can be together forever.
Not according to Christianity or Jesus teachings.
"....For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. -- Matthew 10:35-36 "

Quote:6)All people will be saved from physical death(hell).
We will wait and see.

Quote:7)God is not only Justice(punishment) He is also Mercy(salvation)

Now let me see ?
God tortures little children killing one of them every 45 seconds from Malaria....that seems like a barbaric savage in charge of a planet with large parts being Gulag concentration camps. I work on a neurological and oncology ward in a hospital - definitely Gods Gulag & torture chamber multiplied endlessly across the Earth. Is this Justice ? NO Is it Mercy NO. Is believing a god who is "just" and "merciful" a useful delusion for some people - seems so.

Quote:8)Do good to all people especially to your family and you will be just fine.
Pretty much the advice of a secular Humanist, Stoic Philosopher, most Secular philosophers or generally wise advice - has nothing to do with God.
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02-01-2014, 04:25 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(02-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 05:05 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I find it highly unlikely that your father, as a mathematician, ever simply relied upon a feeling or divine revelation to answer a problem in his work. Because in mathematics (much like the rest of science), it is not enough to simply believe or feel that you are right; you have to show it.
He was an Atheist. His rule number one was:
first be skeptical.

Too bad you don't appear to have taken the lesson to heart.

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