The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
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03-01-2014, 02:19 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 01:00 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 12:27 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  I know mine according to LDS my friend. I'm excommunicated and have 'denied the holy spirit'. It's outer darkness then spiritual death for me I'm afraid! Smile fortunately I don't believe a word of it. I was pretty much an agnostic theist when I joined and left atheist. ... Anyway, you said earlier you aren't trying to convert people so I'll respect that and won't try and argue with you when I think you're side stepping. Smile
You were agnostic. Then you have to know that you didn't deny the Holy Ghost.
Do you know what it means to deny the Holy Ghost?
You were excommunicated for something else and not for denying the Holy Ghost.
I know I am right. But it is not my business. Unless you want to share with me your story.

I'll share it some other time. I accepted elder priesthood mate and was in up to my neck. I know doctrinally I had accepted baptism and the laying on of hands. I was excommunicated for sitting with the bishop in his office and having a very honest discussion with him as to why I thought it was all untrue and that I had reached a position of atheism. He has a genuine belief in all of it and was sobbing his heart out mate because I had accepted the holy ghost then denied it. (from a doctrinal point of view) ... he believes it. I don't it's as simple as that.

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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03-01-2014, 02:29 AM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2014 02:45 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 12:00 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 04:23 PM)Baruch Wrote:  God as heavenly father actually despises His children, so much so that every 45 seconds a child dies of malaria. Gods actions show He loves the plasmodium parasite and gives it salvation by survival of the fittest when using little human children and mosquito's as host vectors - basically tools for making more plasmodiums !!! HoboEvil_monster
conclusion - God is a mass child slaughterer torturer gulag concentration camp boss !!!
When you know the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ you can understand better why these kind of things happen.
All those things have to happen. This is part of the plan. And we all agree to pass these horrible/evil things.

If you knew anything at all about the polytheistic pagan origins of Judaism and Christianity, the foundations that the Church of Latter Day Saints (also known as the Mormons); you would be far more skeptical of any 'divine truth' built upon such a demonstrably false foundation. If you knew anything at all about archaeology and the history of the American continents and the world in general, you'd have a better understanding of why us skeptics find it so unbelievable.

Joseph Smith in his Book of Mormon makes so many claims on history that have been falsified, there is no doubt that the book is a fraudulent work of fiction.

The native Americans were not a lost tribe of Israel. None of the studied dialects and languages of the American people have any linguistic resemblance to languages used in Mesopotamia, whereas languages in that region have fairly clear evolutionary lines. It also does not agree with genetic evidence which indicated beyond a reasonable doubt that the native peoples of the Americas were most likely immigrants from Asia across the Bering Straight during the last Ice Age.

Also, Smith could not decipher or read Egyptian hieroglyphics to save his life.

Smith also says that they had silk clothing when there is no evidence of silk outside of China until the Babylonians managed to get their hands on their own silk worm eggs and began cultivating them in 522 CE.

Wikipedia on Archaeology & the Historicity of the Book of Mormon Wrote:The Book of Mormon mentions several animals, plants, and technologies for which there is no evidence in pre-Columbian America. These include asses, cattle, milk, horses, oxen, sheep, swine, goats, elephants, wheat, barley,figs, silk, steel, bellows, brass, breast plates, chains, iron working, plows, swords, scimitars, and chariots. The Smithsonian Institution has stated that "none of the principal food plants and domestic animals of the Old World (except the dog) were present in the New World before Columbus."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity...rchaeology

That's right, he claims they also had not just iron working, but that they also had steel. No iron artifacts match the places and dates, the native peoples of the America never developed iron; let alone steel. It would be one thing to not find iron and steel artifacts, but what about everything needed to create iron and steel items? Not only is there no evidence of any iron or steel items, there is no evidence of the industry required to make these items (mills, iron and coal mines, foundry's, etc.). It also is claimed to have occurred more than a millennia before the earliest evidence we have for these technologies. It would be the equivalent of the Roman Emperor Julius Caesar having an operational Boeing 737 thousands of years before the Wright Brother's first powered flight near Kitty Hawk in 1903.

It's one thing to loose a steel sword, quite another to loose the whole fucking steel mill. Dodgy



(03-01-2014 12:00 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 04:23 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Those little kiddies dying from Malaria fever don't exactly get an opportunity to come close to Christ as they perish in feverish agony as God helps those plasmodium's multiply in their livers and blood stream.
Not according to the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. Their lives are not in vain.

And according to the Koran, those 19 hijackers involved in the attacks on the World Trade Center twin towers are currently residing in Heaven with their own personal harem of 72 self replenishing virgins. Does this compel you to disavow your current faith and become a member of the One-Truth-Faith as a Muslim? My point? A claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.



(03-01-2014 12:00 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 04:23 PM)Baruch Wrote:  I don't have an opportunity to get close to Christ because I think the story is man made nonsense & quite absurd. Surely a God would not hold me responsible for not believing a story that reads more like a legend ?
I can not know exactly how God Father will judge each one of us but I know this:
God understands our hearts. And it is better if you don't believe and be a good person than if you believe and know the truth but than reject it and do evil things.
God will not hold responsible if you don't know His laws or if you do not understand them.

So the irony of claiming ignorance of your god's judgement followed immediately by claims to knowledge involving your god's plans are entirely lost on you. Your skepticism and reasoning really are operating at dangerously low levels; you're one 'divine inspiration' away form cyanide-laced Kool-Aid.


[Image: gty_01_jonestown_massacre_nt_121115_ssh.jpg]

Dead bodies lie around the compound of the People's Temple cult, Nov. 18, 1978, after the over 900 members of the cult, led by Reverend Jim Jones, died from drinking cyanide-laced Kool-Aid.

[Image: FILEID-1.176.43.jpg]

Among the 918 killed in Jonestown were over 200 children. They lost their lives because their parents were just as good at distinguishing fantasy from reality as you are. This is how delusional you are, just how broken your reasoning and evaluation of evidence is; and this is why people like you scare the ever living shit out of me. Once again you are just one 'divine revelation' away from doing something like this yourself; because your ability to discern fantasy from reality is dangerously broken.

[Image: 360_jonestown_btout.jpg]

I don't want to see or hear of an innocent child paying the ultimate price because of your actions or lack thereof. Religious induced stupidity has a horrify trend of not limiting it's destruction to just itself.



(03-01-2014 12:00 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 04:23 PM)Baruch Wrote:  In that case we can make do with secular humanism and don't need Christianity - fine with me.
Unless you want to have eternal life. In order to have eternal life anybody needs Christ. You are not going to be in hell but you will not have the highest degree of the glory - exaltation.

Who wants eternal life? Forever is a long time. Also your desire for an eternal afterlife is not evidence for the existence of said afterlife; nor is it evidence for the existence of Heaven or Hell.



(03-01-2014 12:00 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 04:23 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Not according to Christianity or Jesus teachings.
"....For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. -- Matthew 10:35-36 "
Families CAN be together forever if they live the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Because of Jesus many families are at war/ divided. And it is true. Jesus just let them know what will happen so they wouldn't be surprised.

Please provide evidence for any of the claims you've made here. How do you know families will be together forever? Where would they be? So please also provide evidence for the state and location of eternal souls, and that they consist of bonded family units.

Remembering once again that holy books, religion, and faith are not evidence; they are the claims.



(03-01-2014 12:00 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 04:23 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Now let me see ?
God tortures little children killing one of them every 45 seconds from Malaria....that seems like a barbaric savage in charge of a planet with large parts being Gulag concentration camps. I work on a neurological and oncology ward in a hospital - definitely Gods Gulag & torture chamber multiplied endlessly across the Earth. Is this Justice ? NO Is it Mercy NO. Is believing a god who is "just" and "merciful" a useful delusion for some people - seems so.
Again if you know Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ you understand better why this happens. But I don't think you are too interested to know.

If you knew anything about the nature of reality, cosmology, biology, and evolution; you'd understand why the super-natural is not needed to explain any of it. Anything super-natural (including gods) is an unnecessary assumption in our understating of reality and pursuit of truth.



(03-01-2014 12:00 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(02-01-2014 04:23 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Pretty much the advice of a secular Humanist, Stoic Philosopher, most Secular philosophers or generally wise advice - has nothing to do with God.
Sure.
By the way secular Humanism, Stoic Philosopher, most secular philosophers have parts of the truth.

And you don't have any of the truth... Drinking Beverage

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03-01-2014, 02:38 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 02:19 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 01:00 AM)Alla Wrote:  You were agnostic. Then you have to know that you didn't deny the Holy Ghost.
Do you know what it means to deny the Holy Ghost?
You were excommunicated for something else and not for denying the Holy Ghost.
I know I am right. But it is not my business. Unless you want to share with me your story.

I'll share it some other time. I accepted elder priesthood mate and was in up to my neck. I know doctrinally I had accepted baptism and the laying on of hands. I was excommunicated for sitting with the bishop in his office and having a very honest discussion with him as to why I thought it was all untrue and that I had reached a position of atheism. He has a genuine belief in all of it and was sobbing his heart out mate because I had accepted the holy ghost then denied it. (from a doctrinal point of view) ... he believes it. I don't it's as simple as that.
Sure. I understand. But because you told me that you were agnostic and never received the revelation by the power of the Holy Ghost you do not sin against the Holy Ghost. It is NOT possible to deny what you never had.
So, outer darkness is not your faith. Smile

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03-01-2014, 07:09 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 01:52 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  My point to Baruch is that to declare , " God is a mass child slaughterer torturer gulag concentration camp boss !!!" is well and fine, but to purposely ignore the positive that happens in life in order to paint a negative picture, is somewhat disingenuous.

Just because a person does good things doesn't mean they get a free ticket to torture some children so long as they maintain a "net positive". If you build ten orphanages and torture one child, people will call you "Kestrel the child torturer", not "Kestrel the orphanage builder" or even "Kestrel the orphanage builder and child torturer".

As soon as you go down the path of willful child torture, people stop caring about any good you might have done.


(03-01-2014 01:52 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  As a believer, I defer to the judgement of the God I believe in. Yet I do not pad it for myself as many of my brethren do. That is to say, if a thing is "good", then it comes from God. If "evil", God permits it. It's all on Gods shoulders from my point of view.

So you'll find no cop out here.

No, that is a cop out, because you're making excuses for it and refusing to consider whether or not it's actually good. You're just accepting it as good by changing your definition of "good" to include "willful child torture, so long as it comes from God".

That's the biggest type of cop out.
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03-01-2014, 10:37 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Just for the record...

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03-01-2014, 10:48 AM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2014 02:12 PM by Baruch.)
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 07:09 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 01:52 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  My point to Baruch is that to declare , " God is a mass child slaughterer torturer gulag concentration camp boss !!!" is well and fine, but to purposely ignore the positive that happens in life in order to paint a negative picture, is somewhat disingenuous.

Just because a person does good things doesn't mean they get a free ticket to torture some children so long as they maintain a "net positive". If you build ten orphanages and torture one child, people will call you "Kestrel the child torturer", not "Kestrel the orphanage builder" or even "Kestrel the orphanage builder and child torturer".

As soon as you go down the path of willful child torture, people stop caring about any good you might have done.


(03-01-2014 01:52 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  As a believer, I defer to the judgement of the God I believe in. Yet I do not pad it for myself as many of my brethren do. That is to say, if a thing is "good", then it comes from God. If "evil", God permits it. It's all on Gods shoulders from my point of view.

So you'll find no cop out here.

No, that is a cop out, because you're making excuses for it and refusing to consider whether or not it's actually good. You're just accepting it as good by changing your definition of "good" to include "willful child torture, so long as it comes from God".

That's the biggest type of cop out.

Yes Robby Pants - your quite right. Kestrel thinks I'm ignoring the good of God - kind of blinkered vision only looking at Gods torturous atrocities (assuming a personal god existed).

I agree with the orphanage example. If I'm kind to my children everyday and then decide without explanation to stab one of their eyes out - I don't think child care will come along and say - well Baruch, 98% of your deeds are fine except this eye stabbing - so well done, your a nice gentleman. Anyone torturing kids in this way will be cruel and despotic - and this fits Gods Character.

Of course when we are fully aware of the reasons for causing harm eg for a surgeon to cause harm in order for a known later beneficial health then this is fine.
The surgeon analogy does not fit the "God as mass torturer" because any supposed /alleged reasons or benefits of Gods tortures are taken on faith (and most likely BS apologetic theodicy acrobats, for a thorough debunking of theodicy see Bart Ehrman book on "Gods problem" - why all the explanations given (theodicy) do not excuse God as a mass torturer of innocent people)

No one should accept such excessive torture for no reason, hidden reason or alleged promised reasons taken on faith. People should be even further sickened if the torturer then claimed they loved you whilst torturing takes place !!!!
This God of christianity, Mormonism, Jesus or whatever personal manifestation is a sick despicable deity (if existed & personal)

More powerful that the above is that we have a completely naturalistic account for much of the excessive, extreme human suffering making God completely irrelevant. eg once you understand the plasmodium's ecosystem, it is of no surprize millions of children die of Malaria - the humans are not centre stage in a Divine purposeful drama but merely useful host vectors for mosquito's & plasmodium's to propagate and multiply in the local ecosystem. From an ecological point of view - its not personal.

None of what I write is related to non personal concepts of God eg such as Spinoza's (but that's not relevant here as Spinozism its apostasy to Christianity/Judaism/Islam i.e personal revelations & religious systems)
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03-01-2014, 02:33 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2014 02:39 PM by Baruch.)
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
[quote]
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  [quote='Alla' pid='456871' dateline='1388728831']

[quote]Not according to the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. Their lives are not in vain.

What gives the restored gospel of Jesus Christ any credibility ?
If I quoted "not according to Starwars & Jedi religion" does that make it credible ?
"May the Force be with You"
Also as Evolution Kills wrote - 9/11 bombers thought they get heaven by blowing up buildings with Jets - what gives your revelation book any credibility ?
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03-01-2014, 02:36 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2014 02:41 PM by Baruch.)
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Quote:
(03-01-2014 12:00 AM)Alla Wrote:  Unless you want to have eternal life. In order to have eternal life anybody needs Christ. You are not going to be in hell but you will not have the highest degree of the glory - exaltation.

Who wants eternal life? Forever is a long time. Also your desire for an eternal afterlife is not evidence for the existence of said afterlife; nor is it evidence for the existence of Heaven or Hell.

I agree with evolutionkills - why desire eternal life ? Actually consider this question very seriously & deeply. Its the limited nature of life, its temporariness which is the ultimate source of meaning & why it can be considered precious. By extending life forever it just becomes purposeless & meaningless - like some platonic number 1, triangle or golden ratio which may exist eternally. Think back to any meaningful moment - and it is just that; a moment, time limited activity or series of activities/experiences be it awesome scenery, baby born, ecstatic meditation, friendship, lover - whatever - none of it is "forever" and being forever would ruin it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


As for morality - be moral for rational reasons & own sake - any religion teaching morality for a better afterlife is seriously misunderstanding what it means to be a decent person. Am I nice to you if I give you a gift just because I think I score extra reward points from a super daddy in the sky ?
An afterlife is simply not required and when thought about deeply quite unwarranted and destructive to appreciating the life we live now (as Nietzsche points out an afterlife is this present life denying and leads to nihilism about life we live now) .
In any case there is no evidence for an afterlife. Neither NDE's or contacting spirits is convincing (and I have done plenty NDE research)
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03-01-2014, 04:04 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2014 04:12 PM by Alla.)
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If you knew anything at all about the polytheistic pagan origins of Judaism and Christianity, the foundations that the Church of Latter Day Saints (also known as the Mormons); you would be far more skeptical of any 'divine truth' built upon such a demonstrably false foundation.
I don't believe that Judaism and Christianity have pagan origins. I believe that pagan religions copied true religion. Pagan religions have parts of the truth.
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If you knew anything at all about archaeology and the history of the American continents and the world in general, you'd have a better understanding of why us skeptics find it so unbelievable.
Archeology and world history and BoM do not contradict each other as far as I know. If you know about contradictions please share with me.

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Joseph Smith in his Book of Mormon makes so many claims on history that have been falsified, there is no doubt that the book is a fraudulent work of fiction.
Not to my knowledge. What claims are talking about?

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The native Americans were not a lost tribe of Israel.
Nobody claims that this is absolute truth. Did anybody claim that Native Americans are lost tribe of Israel?

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  None of the studied dialects and languages of the American people have any linguistic resemblance to languages used in Mesopotamia, whereas languages in that region have fairly clear evolutionary lines. It also does not agree with genetic evidence which indicated beyond a reasonable doubt that the native peoples of the Americas were most likely immigrants from Asia across the Bering Straight during the last Ice Age.
About language. There is evidence that there is resemblence. About Indians - I read Book of Mormon that is why I am not concerned about that they are immigrants from Asia. People of Book of Mormon were immigrants from different parts of the world. So I am not surprised that Indians have among their ancestors those who are from Asia.

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Also, Smith could not decipher or read Egyptian hieroglyphics to save his life.
What do you mean?

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Smith also says that they had silk clothing when there is no evidence of silk outside of China until the Babylonians managed to get their hands on their own silk worm eggs and began cultivating them in 522 CE.
Please what book, chapter?

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The Book of Mormon mentions several animals, plants, and technologies for which there is no evidence in pre-Columbian America. These include asses, cattle, milk, horses, oxen, sheep, swine, goats, elephants, wheat, barley,figs, silk, steel, bellows, brass, breast plates, chains, iron working, plows, swords, scimitars, and chariots. The Smithsonian Institution has stated that "none of the principal food plants and domestic animals of the Old World (except the dog) were present in the New World before Columbus."
Which book of the Book of Mormon you are talking about? and chapter.

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity...rchaeology

That's right, he claims they also had not just iron working, but that they also had steel. No iron artifacts match the places and dates, the native peoples of the America never developed iron; let alone steel. It would be one thing to not find iron and steel artifacts, but what about everything needed to create iron and steel items? Not only is there no evidence of any iron or steel items, there is no evidence of the industry required to make these items (mills, iron and coal mines, foundry's, etc.). It also is claimed to have occurred more than a millennia before the earliest evidence we have for these technologies. It would be the equivalent of the Roman Emperor Julius Caesar having an operational Boeing 737 thousands of years before the Wright Brother's first powered flight near Kitty Hawk in 1903.

It's one thing to loose a steel sword, quite another to loose the whole fucking steel mill. Dodgy
Please, book and chapter in BoM. And may be you open new thread. And I will respond. And please one item at the time. For example, first we can talk about elephants, then about steel, then about something else.
Please, this way is easier.

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And according to the Koran, those 19 hijackers involved in the attacks on the World Trade Center twin towers are currently residing in Heaven with their own personal harem of 72 self replenishing virgins. Does this compel you to disavow your current faith and become a member of the One-Truth-Faith as a Muslim? My point? A claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
I understand your point. That is why nobody forces you to be a Mormon.

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Among the 918 killed in Jonestown were over 200 children. They lost their lives because their parents were just as good at distinguishing fantasy from reality as you are. This is how delusional you are, just how broken your reasoning and evaluation of evidence is; and this is why people like you scare the ever living shit out of me. Once again you are just one 'divine revelation' away from doing something like this yourself; because your ability to discern fantasy from reality is dangerously broken.
When I tell you that God makes me do this kind of things then you can call me delusional.

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I don't want to see or hear of an innocent child paying the ultimate price because of your actions or lack thereof. Religious induced stupidity has a horrify trend of not limiting it's destruction to just itself.
Yes, false religions can bring force evil fruits.

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Who wants eternal life? Forever is a long time.
I do and many millions of LDS.

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Also your desire for an eternal afterlife is not evidence for the existence of said afterlife; nor is it evidence for the existence of Heaven or Hell.
Yes.

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Please provide evidence for any of the claims you've made here. How do you know families will be together forever? Where would they be? So please also provide evidence for the state and location of eternal souls, and that they consist of bonded family units.
I can not provide evidence to you. I don't know how to do this. But I can answer your questions. I know that families can be together forever by the power of the Holy Ghost. They will live near Kolob on this Earth.

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Remembering once again that holy books, religion, and faith are not evidence; they are the claims.
Of course. I am aware of that.

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If you knew anything about the nature of reality, cosmology, biology, and evolution; you'd understand why the super-natural is not needed to explain any of it. Anything super-natural (including gods) is an unnecessary assumption in our understating of reality and pursuit of truth.
I don't believe in super natural things/gods.

(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And you don't have any of the truth... Drinking Beverage
Everybody has/knows at least some degree of the truth. Even Lucifer says the truth once in while for his evil purpose.


P.S. By the way I read all your posts. I do not ignore you. I just have no comments on many of your posts.

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03-01-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 02:33 PM)Baruch Wrote:  What gives the restored gospel of Jesus Christ any credibility ?
If I quoted "not according to Starwars & Jedi religion" does that make it credible ?
"May the Force be with You"
Also as Evolution Kills wrote - 9/11 bombers thought they get heaven by blowing up buildings with Jets - what gives your revelation book any credibility ?
To your point - you don't have to believe others if you can't. Only by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know for yourself.
Only God can provide you an evidence. I can't. He provides evidence to me personally and this is how my faith(trust in God) is growing.
Do not believe me. But you may ask God and then believe Him.

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