The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
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03-01-2014, 04:26 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 02:36 PM)Baruch Wrote:  [quote]
I agree with evolutionkills - why desire eternal life ? Actually consider this question very seriously & deeply. Its the limited nature of life, its temporariness which is the ultimate source of meaning & why it can be considered precious. By extending life forever it just becomes purposeless & meaningless - like some platonic number 1, triangle or golden ratio which may exist eternally. Think back to any meaningful moment - and it is just that; a moment, time limited activity or series of activities/experiences be it awesome scenery, baby born, ecstatic meditation, friendship, lover - whatever - none of it is "forever" and being forever would ruin it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Eternal life is not lacking of those kind of moments. Eternal life is all those kind of moments only even in more varieties and more/un-limited opportunities.

(03-01-2014 02:36 PM)Baruch Wrote:  As for morality - be moral for rational reasons & own sake - any religion teaching morality for a better afterlife is seriously misunderstanding what it means to be a decent person. Am I nice to you if I give you a gift just because I think I score extra reward points from a super daddy in the sky ?
Not at all. This is not why God teaches us His standards of morality - to get extra points. We are not getting to heaven by earning points. I want to become like my Heavenly Parents and like my Brother Jesus Christ. By following Their moral standards I am becoming like Them. And I like it. It makes me happier and I Spirit is always with me.

(03-01-2014 02:36 PM)Baruch Wrote:  An afterlife is simply not required and when thought about deeply quite unwarranted and destructive to appreciating the life we live now (as Nietzsche points out an afterlife is this present life denying and leads to nihilism about life we live now) .
Eternal life is eternal progression.

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03-01-2014, 05:07 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Quote:
(03-01-2014 04:17 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:33 PM)Baruch Wrote:  What gives the restored gospel of Jesus Christ any credibility ?
If I quoted "not according to Starwars & Jedi religion" does that make it credible ?
"May the Force be with You"
Also as Evolution Kills wrote - 9/11 bombers thought they get heaven by blowing up buildings with Jets - what gives your revelation book any credibility ?
To your point - you don't have to believe others if you can't. Only by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know for yourself.
Only God can provide you an evidence. I can't. He provides evidence to me personally and this is how my faith(trust in God) is growing.
Do not believe me. But you may ask God and then believe Him.

Alla - the problem about revelation books is they contain PROPOSITIONAL CONTENT - i.e the make claims which can be independently researched and often falsified by searching for empirical factual evidence - whether the book of Mormon, Bible, QUran or any other book such as The Iliad. The book cannot just be "known" by a holy ghost whispering to me the book is true.
Eg in the Bible the story of Noah makes factual historical claims - all are false
The New testament makes many historical claims - again many are false or very unlikely. There is much evidence based literature on the fraudulent nature of Joseph Smith - a very unconvincing story !!! (and no historical evidence narrative which is credible).

So what does it mean
Quote: "Only by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know for yourself. "
???????

If the holy Ghost came to me and told me there was a Noah flood I WOULD STILL NOT BELIEVE IT !!! The holy ghost MUST CHANGE THE EVIDENCE IN THE WORLD NOT MY PSYCHOLOGICAL FEELINGS !!!!

Even if as I sleep tonight the grace of the holy ghost told me directly to believe in Jesus - I would not be able to because I find the proposition absurd, irrational & illogical - a revelation cannot make 2 + 2 = 5 - no matter how convincing the feelings may be.
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03-01-2014, 06:07 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Quote:Eternal life is not lacking of those kind of moments. Eternal life is all those kind of moments only even in more varieties and more/un-limited opportunities.
How do you know this ?
...a very long life, maybe 100 x longer has more variety and perhaps opportunity. However can ETERNAL life have more opportunities ? It seems absurd and likely a repetitive eternal bore. Like Plato contemplating the platonic forms of the number 5 for eternity. If there is forgetting than the concept of eternity is redundant, if there is no forgetting then it is the ultimate nightmare !
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03-01-2014, 06:17 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Quote:
(03-01-2014 02:36 PM)Baruch Wrote:  As for morality - be moral for rational reasons & own sake - any religion teaching morality for a better afterlife is seriously misunderstanding what it means to be a decent person. Am I nice to you if I give you a gift just because I think I score extra reward points from a super daddy in the sky ?
Not at all. This is not why God teaches us His standards of morality - to get extra points. We are not getting to heaven by earning points. I want to become like my Heavenly Parents and like my Brother Jesus Christ. By following Their moral standards I am becoming like Them. And I like it. It makes me happier and I Spirit is always with me.

I never would want to become like Jesus, I think some of his teachings are appalling - I think his family values are terrible and reinforced by Paul in a terrible manner. Also I prefer to take responsibility for my actions not having others "dying" for my errors/sins - a truly discussing & immoral concept.

Quote:3.Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." Mathew 10:34-36

Quote: Mathew10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Why would someone want to exemplify and want to be like Jesus ? There are far better role models for family values !!!
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03-01-2014, 06:30 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Quote:
(03-01-2014 02:36 PM)Baruch Wrote:  An afterlife is simply not required and when thought about deeply quite unwarranted and destructive to appreciating the life we live now (as Nietzsche points out an afterlife is this present life denying and leads to nihilism about life we live now) .
Eternal life is eternal progression.
[/quote]

Eternal life is only potentially eternal progression if there is free will in the afterlife so that meaningful choices can be made.
If there is no free will then one is stuck at whatever stage they are at forever at death - a nightmarish scenario of stasis (regardless if a heaven or hell).

If there is free will then why should there be progression ? What is the point of the afterlife ?
Admittedly most of us in good health would want to live an extra 100 years perhaps. Lets be generous and give someone a whopping Methuselah of 1000 years.
But is eternal life really desirable ? Why ?

How do you know this is not just a bunch of words put together "Eternal progression"
Just because you can string together three words "ETERNAL"..."LIFE"..."PROGRESSION" what does it mean to you ????
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03-01-2014, 07:31 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 05:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  The book cannot just be "known" by a holy ghost whispering to me the book is true.
Holy Ghost can testify if something is true.
But I have nothing against independent researches.

(03-01-2014 05:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Eg in the Bible the story of Noah makes factual historical claims - all are false
May be. So?
(03-01-2014 05:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  The New testament makes many historical claims - again many are false or very unlikely.
Probably. So?

(03-01-2014 05:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  There is much evidence based literature on the fraudulent nature of Joseph Smith - a very unconvincing story !!! (and no historical evidence narrative which is credible).
May be. So?

(03-01-2014 05:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  If the holy Ghost came to me and told me there was a Noah flood I WOULD STILL NOT BELIEVE IT !!! The holy ghost MUST CHANGE THE EVIDENCE IN THE WORLD NOT MY PSYCHOLOGICAL FEELINGS !!!!
what kind of evidence are you talking about?
By the way Holy Ghost didn't testify to me about Noah flood. That is why I don't know if it true story but I believe it is true.

(03-01-2014 05:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Even if as I sleep tonight the grace of the holy ghost told me directly to believe in Jesus - I would not be able to because I find the proposition absurd, irrational & illogical - a revelation cannot make 2 + 2 = 5 - no matter how convincing the feelings may be.
What is so absurd, irrational and illogical about having faith in Jesus Christ?

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03-01-2014, 07:38 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 06:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
Alla Wrote:Eternal life is not lacking of those kind of moments. Eternal life is all those kind of moments only even in more varieties and more/un-limited opportunities.
How do you know this ?
I have learned about eternal life from the revelations which God gave to His Prophets.
(03-01-2014 06:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  ...a very long life, maybe 100 x longer has more variety and perhaps opportunity. However can ETERNAL life have more opportunities ?
unlimited opportunities and experiences.

(03-01-2014 06:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  It seems absurd and likely a repetitive eternal bore. Like Plato contemplating the platonic forms of the number 5 for eternity. If there is forgetting than the concept of eternity is redundant, if there is no forgetting then it is the ultimate nightmare !
I have no arguments. It is like one person says that avocado is delicious and another person says that it is not.
There is no point to argue.

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03-01-2014, 07:56 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 06:17 PM)Baruch Wrote:  I never would want to become like Jesus,
Do you know what it means to become like Jesus?
(03-01-2014 06:17 PM)Baruch Wrote:  I think some of his teachings are appalling - I think his family values are terrible and reinforced by Paul in a terrible manner.
what are His family values?
(03-01-2014 06:17 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Also I prefer to take responsibility for my actions not having others "dying" for my errors/sins - a truly discussing & immoral concept.
You will take this responsibility. Nobody will take it away from you. But He died for what you are not responsible.

(03-01-2014 06:17 PM)Baruch Wrote:  [quote]3.Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." Mathew 10:34-36
Not because it is part of His plan. But He let them know in advance that families will be divided because of faith in Him. Jesus taught to love one another not to hate each other. But sometimes family members hate each other when they don't agree with each other. So Jesus let them know that families will be divided because of Him the same way like they are divided because of other things.

(03-01-2014 06:17 PM)Baruch Wrote:  [quote] Mathew10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
To love Jesus more than parents means only one thing: if my parents want me to do something that will not make me to be more like Jesus I will not follow my parents. I will follow Jesus.

(03-01-2014 06:17 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Why would someone want to exemplify and want to be like Jesus ? There are far better role models for family values !!!
There are a lot of good role models. And it is good to follow them. But only Jesus can lead me to eternal life. He tells me what is very important TO DO to have eternal life.

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03-01-2014, 08:10 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 06:30 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Eternal life is only potentially eternal progression if there is free will in the afterlife so that meaningful choices can be made.
Yes, there is moral agency(free will) in afterlife.
(03-01-2014 06:30 PM)Baruch Wrote:  If there is free will then why should there be progression ? What is the point of the afterlife ?
To have eternal happiness.
(03-01-2014 06:30 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Admittedly most of us in good health would want to live an extra 100 years perhaps. Lets be generous and give someone a whopping Methuselah of 1000 years.
But is eternal life really desirable ? Why ?
How do you know this is not just a bunch of words put together "Eternal progression"
Just because you can string together three words "ETERNAL"..."LIFE"..."PROGRESSION" what does it mean to you ????
Eternal life is to have eternal companion whom you love, to have eternal family whom you love, create new worlds, create new things, have more children and help them to grow and help them to have eternal life and happiness. And do lots of fun/interesting things. Each new world is new experience. Each new child is new experience.

Imagine library where there are books of certain writer(your favorite writer). You can read all of them, then you can re-read all of them as many times as you want for eternity. But this is not eternal life, this is not eternal progression. This is immortality.
Eternal life is when you have an opportunity to read more new books of your favorite writer as long as you want. Your favorite writer will write/create new books for eternity. New book is new experience, new fun.

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03-01-2014, 08:23 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 05:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Eg in the Bible the story of Noah makes factual historical claims - all are false

(03-01-2014 07:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  May be. So?

Then it is unlikely to have divine origin. Any book that originates from a divine person would be better than any book that humans can produce. Neither the Bible nor the Book of Mormon contain anything that couldn't have been produced by humans.


(03-01-2014 05:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  There is much evidence based literature on the fraudulent nature of Joseph Smith - a very unconvincing story !!! (and no historical evidence narrative which is credible).

(03-01-2014 07:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  May be. So?

Then it is very likely that Joseph Smith invented the Book of Mormon which means it does not have a divine origin but instead a mundane human origin.

(03-01-2014 07:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  By the way Holy Ghost didn't testify to me about Noah flood. That is why I don't know if it true story but I believe it is true.

How do you know that what you understand to be the Holy Ghost is in fact the Holy Ghost? If the Holy Ghost testifies about itself then that is a circular and self-defeating argument. It would be like asking a liar if he is a liar and accepting his answer that he is not a liar.

Quote:What is so absurd, irrational and illogical about having faith in Jesus Christ?

By your own understanding faith in Jesus Christ is "irrational and illogical". Testimony from the Holy Ghost is neither rational nor logical--you said so yourself. You said you have no arguments for your position.
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