The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
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03-01-2014, 08:29 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 08:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 06:30 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Eternal life is only potentially eternal progression if there is free will in the afterlife so that meaningful choices can be made.
Yes, there is moral agency(free will) in afterlife.
(03-01-2014 06:30 PM)Baruch Wrote:  If there is free will then why should there be progression ? What is the point of the afterlife ?
To have eternal happiness.
(03-01-2014 06:30 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Admittedly most of us in good health would want to live an extra 100 years perhaps. Lets be generous and give someone a whopping Methuselah of 1000 years.
But is eternal life really desirable ? Why ?
How do you know this is not just a bunch of words put together "Eternal progression"
Just because you can string together three words "ETERNAL"..."LIFE"..."PROGRESSION" what does it mean to you ????
Eternal life is to have eternal companion whom you love, to have eternal family whom you love, create new worlds, create new things, have more children and help them to grow and help them to have eternal life and happiness. And do lots of fun/interesting things. Each new world is new experience. Each new child is new experience.

Imagine library where there are books of certain writer(your favorite writer). You can read all of them, then you can re-read all of them as many times as you want for eternity. But this is not eternal life, this is not eternal progression. This is immortality.
Eternal life is when you have an opportunity to read more new books of your favorite writer as long as you want. Your favorite writer will write/create new books for eternity. New book is new experience, new fun.

You keep making assertions about things for which you have no evidence, that couldn't even know.

You are living in a fantasy and wasting your life.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-01-2014, 08:35 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 08:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  Imagine library where there are books of certain writer(your favorite writer). You can read all of them, then you can re-read all of them as many times as you want for eternity. But this is not eternal life, this is not eternal progression. This is immortality.
Eternal life is when you have an opportunity to read more new books of your favorite writer as long as you want. Your favorite writer will write/create new books for eternity. New book is new experience, new fun.

There is no actvity--however good it is--that would would survive eternity. Everything--regardless of how good it is--will eventually become tedious and mundane. The very act of pursuing "new fun"--as you put it--would itself eventually become tedious and uninspiring. Think about what you are posting. Eternity isn't 1000 years, not 10,000 years, not 1 million years, not 1 billion it is literally never-ending. You would be caught up in world in which you can get no respite or reprieve. How would this be unlike hell? And where exactly is the free-will in such a world? If you have contra-causal free-will how would you decide what to do in this eternity? What would motivate your actions?

Please don't just recite a "canned" answer. Try and think through what Baruch and I have posted.
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03-01-2014, 08:47 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 08:23 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 05:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Eg in the Bible the story of Noah makes factual historical claims - all are false
(03-01-2014 07:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  May be. So?
Then it is unlikely to have divine origin.
OK. I agree. But what is false about this story?

(03-01-2014 08:23 PM)Chippy Wrote:  Any book that originates from a divine person would be better than any book that humans can produce.
what do you mean "better"? in what way better?
(03-01-2014 08:23 PM)Chippy Wrote:  Neither the Bible nor the Book of Mormon contain anything that couldn't have been produced by humans.
So? what does it mean according to you?


(03-01-2014 08:23 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 05:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  There is much evidence based literature on the fraudulent nature of Joseph Smith - a very unconvincing story !!! (and no historical evidence narrative which is credible).
(03-01-2014 07:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  May be. So?
Then it is very likely that Joseph Smith invented the Book of Mormon which means it does not have a divine origin but instead a mundane human origin.
Yes, but where is the proof that those "evidence" are true?

(03-01-2014 08:23 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 07:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  By the way Holy Ghost didn't testify to me about Noah flood. That is why I don't know if it true story but I believe it is true.

How do you know that what you understand to be the Holy Ghost is in fact the Holy Ghost? If the Holy Ghost testifies about itself then that is a circular and self-defeating argument. It would be like asking a liar if he is a liar and accepting his answer that he is not a liar.
True. I just trust Him. I didn't catch Him lying to me yet. Smile

(03-01-2014 08:23 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
Alla Wrote:What is so absurd, irrational and illogical about having faith in Jesus Christ?
By your own understanding faith in Jesus Christ is "irrational and illogical".
what is my understanding according to you? I still don't understand how it is irrational?

(03-01-2014 08:23 PM)Chippy Wrote:  Testimony from the Holy Ghost is neither rational nor logical--you said so yourself. You said you have no arguments for your position.
I can not provide any evidence to you that is why there is no point to argue. But God can provide evidence to me.

English is not my native language.
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03-01-2014, 08:52 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 08:35 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 08:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  Imagine library where there are books of certain writer(your favorite writer). You can read all of them, then you can re-read all of them as many times as you want for eternity. But this is not eternal life, this is not eternal progression. This is immortality.
Eternal life is when you have an opportunity to read more new books of your favorite writer as long as you want. Your favorite writer will write/create new books for eternity. New book is new experience, new fun.

There is no actvity--however good it is--that would would survive eternity. Everything--regardless of how good it is--will eventually become tedious and mundane. The very act of pursuing "new fun"--as you put it--would itself eventually become tedious and uninspiring. Think about what you are posting. Eternity isn't 1000 years, not 10,000 years, not 1 million years, not 1 billion it is literally never-ending. You would be caught up in world in which you can get no respite or reprieve. How would this be unlike hell? And where exactly is the free-will in such a world? If you have contra-causal free-will how would you decide what to do in this eternity? What would motivate your actions?

Please don't just recite a "canned" answer. Try and think through what Baruch and I have posted.

I can not comprehend eternity but I trust God that eternal progression or exaltation is the best blessing someone can have. I am working towards having this blessing. And there is an option: If I don't like it I will kill myself. Smile

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03-01-2014, 08:54 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 04:26 PM)Alla Wrote:  Eternal life is not lacking of those kind of moments.

It is. If everything can be had in unlimited quantities then it all becomes meaningless and worthless. A crude analogy to this is completing a video game with all the cheats enabled so that you have unlimited time, unlimited ammunition, and unlimited health. You complete the game but so what?

Pick your favourite food and imagine you had a magic stomach. The magic stomach never fills so you can keep eating and you don't become fatter. If you can consume your favourite food in infinite quantites I'd guess that after 1000 years (and that is being generous) your favourite food will no longer bring you any pleasure.

Quote:Eternal life is all those kind of moments only even in more varieties and more/un-limited opportunities.

That doesn't matter because eternity will flatten out the value of everything, everything that could be deemed good will be equally valuable/valueless.

Quote:Eternal life is eternal progression.

If eternal progression is possible, i.e. if the finish line keeps moving as it is approached then that would be a type of hell rather than a heaven. That would make eternal life entirely meaningless. All activity would be in vain because there is no end-goal and there is an infinity of time to not achieve an end-goal.
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03-01-2014, 08:54 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 08:35 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 08:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  Imagine library where there are books of certain writer(your favorite writer). You can read all of them, then you can re-read all of them as many times as you want for eternity. But this is not eternal life, this is not eternal progression. This is immortality.
Eternal life is when you have an opportunity to read more new books of your favorite writer as long as you want. Your favorite writer will write/create new books for eternity. New book is new experience, new fun.

There is no actvity--however good it is--that would would survive eternity. Everything--regardless of how good it is--will eventually become tedious and mundane. The very act of pursuing "new fun"--as you put it--would itself eventually become tedious and uninspiring. Think about what you are posting. Eternity isn't 1000 years, not 10,000 years, not 1 million years, not 1 billion it is literally never-ending. You would be caught up in world in which you can get no respite or reprieve. How would this be unlike hell? And where exactly is the free-will in such a world? If you have contra-causal free-will how would you decide what to do in this eternity? What would motivate your actions?

Please don't just recite a "canned" answer. Try and think through what Baruch and I have posted.

In advance, forgive me if I retread points made, I have not read the last few pages nor reread the thread.

This I wholeheartedly agree with. Everything is finite and must run it's course.i agree that one lifetime is not enough to do/learn/think/say/feel everything you want to but the idea intellectually and emotionally that you go forever? That's depressing, on an unimaginable scale.

My first and main craft or trade if you like, when I was a lot younger was guitar. I played in original material bands and did the odd cover band gig for years, all over the country, I taught my craft at college and university level. This has sprung to mind and is relevant to me personally for one reason. One of the biggest lessons I learnt was to leave people wanting more. If they thought they had seen everything you have to offer in one show, you'd done something wrong. If the audience were excited and couldn't wait to see you again, you'd hit the spot. It's the best analogy I can give, I'd like to leave life knowing I'd given my all and was only beaten by time. I'd prefer to leave wanting more! I can't think of anything more depressing than wishing I was dead.

LDS my friend, as I said in another thread, I won't ride your bones but I'd hold you in higher regard if you didn't give the predictable LDS response to everything.

A man blames his bad childhood on leprechauns. He claims they don't exist, but yet still says without a doubt that they stole all his money and then killed his parents. That's why he became Leprechaun-Man

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03-01-2014, 09:23 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 08:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  I can not comprehend eternity but I trust God that eternal progression or exaltation is the best blessing someone can have.

In a scheme of "eternal progression" there is no real progression, it is an illusion. If a race runs an infinite distance it does not matter that you have covered 1 mile or 1000 miles you have not moved any closer to the finish line. That is in the nature of infinity and eternity.

Quote:And there is an option: If I don't like it I will kill myself. Smile

But that is the problem, you can't kill yourself in the afterlife of any religion.
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03-01-2014, 10:27 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2014 10:34 PM by Baruch.)
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Quote: Alla: Holy Ghost can testify if something is true.
But I have nothing against independent researches

So Alla - what do you do when independent research falsifies the teachings of the holy ghost ?
Put is another way - what happens when independent research conflicts with the intuitive revelations you have access to ?

Quote:Baruch:
Eg in the Bible the story of Noah makes factual historical claims - all are false
Alla:May be. So?

My point here is the Bible is believed on faith to be the error free word of God. If independent research disproves its claims then it cannot have been inspired the holy ghosts but simply the errors of erroneous writers with ignorance.

Quote:By the way Holy Ghost didn't testify to me about Noah flood. That is why I don't know if it true story but I believe it is true.

The Noah Story is thoroughly debunked even with geological knowledge from 200 years ago. Basically the Noah story is accepted as mythology due to its abundant geological, biological and ecological mistakes making it absolutely impossible to be historical. In any case the biblical story is based on earlier myths such as Gilgamesh. Also Jesus would have believed the story at the time and have been in error !
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03-01-2014, 11:09 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Quote:
(03-01-2014 05:07 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Even if as I sleep tonight the grace of the holy ghost told me directly to believe in Jesus - I would not be able to because I find the proposition absurd, irrational & illogical - a revelation cannot make 2 + 2 = 5 - no matter how convincing the feelings may be.
What is so absurd, irrational and illogical about having faith in Jesus Christ?
[/quote]

Any form of faith is irrational.
Hope needs to be distinguished from faith. Faith is a knowledge claim without evidence whilst hope is an emotional feeling we want a desire to occur. Hope is fine, sometimes good to have and sometimes inappropriate - but a potentially useful emotion eg hope we can find a partner, hope are children remain healthy, hope we do well in exams etc. Hope is vital for good psychological well being.

Faith however is a knowledge claim with insufficient evidence. When someone says Jesus walked on water they don't mean they "hope Jesus walked on water" (presupposes uncertainty) they mean they know Jesus walked on water or was crucified and resurrected but don't have the evidence. Basically this makes faith not an emotion but making beliefs without any justified evidence. This is irrational, illogical and absurd.


As for Jesus in particular - there are many reasons why the story is absurd, illogical, unreasonable and profoundly immoral to believe in jesus as god.
Perhaps some of the actions claimed by Jesus may be good advice, but that does not deify Jesus or make the whole package good advice. (like everything there is a mixture of some truths in the midst of nonsense - eg there are times when forgiveness is appropriate - but this is hardly a unique teaching of Jesus)

I can make a long list of why belief in a jesus deity is absurd, illogical & unreasonable for starters:

the idea of the death of Jesus as atonement for other peoples sins is absurd nonsense.
Jesus dying for the sins of others is an immoral teaching that evades responsibility for ones own actions and has no rational justification. (in any case its not true "deicide" considering there is a resurrection which means jesus never really dies to save anyone !!!!!)
I would by far much rather love & value a fire fighter who is just an ordinary person risking their life to save some children in a burning building with the possibility of genuine death and injury than Jesus !

There are many other reasons why belief in jesus is absurd, irrational, illogical and immoral - we can go through them one at a time.
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03-01-2014, 11:58 PM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 03:01 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If you knew anything at all about the polytheistic pagan origins of Judaism and Christianity, the foundations that the Church of Latter Day Saints (also known as the Mormons); you would be far more skeptical of any 'divine truth' built upon such a demonstrably false foundation.
I don't believe that Judaism and Christianity have pagan origins. I believe that pagan religions copied true religion. Pagan religions have parts of the truth.


Of course you do, because you enjoy your own beliefs and religion far too much to ever question it. Get yourself a fucking education, because the pagan origins of monotheism is the well established consensus of Biblical scholarship, and has been for decades. There is a clear evolutionary line that can be traced at least as far back as the Babylonians. News flash, your god Yahweh originated within the Canaanite religion as part of their polythesitic pantheon. He was one of the 70 sons of El Elyon/El Shaddai (the Lord Most High), and was essentially the regional war god for the lands of Judea. Your god essentially started out as the Canaanite and Jewish version of the Greek god of war Ares, no wonder the Old Testament is filled with so much bloodshed.

Do yourself a favor and pick up a copy of 'A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam' by Karren Amstrong, and read through that before spouting off what you 'believe' is true; because we've already established that you suck at determining fantasy from reality. Your understanding of the origins of your own faith is infantile.











(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If you knew anything at all about archaeology and the history of the American continents and the world in general, you'd have a better understanding of why us skeptics find it so unbelievable.
Archeology and world history and BoM do not contradict each other as far as I know. If you know about contradictions please share with me.


You don't know, because you've never cared to look.

Historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon at Wikipedia Wrote:The question of the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon has long been a source of contention between members of the Latter Day Saint movement and non-members. Most, but not all, Mormons hold the book's connection to ancient American history as an article of their faith. However, this view finds no acceptance outside of Mormonism. The theory that the Book of Mormon is an ancient American history is considered to fall outside academic credibility.



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Joseph Smith in his Book of Mormon makes so many claims on history that have been falsified, there is no doubt that the book is a fraudulent work of fiction.
Not to my knowledge. What claims are talking about?


Historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon on Wikipedia Wrote:The Book of Mormon mentions several animals, plants, and technologies for which there is no evidence in pre-Columbian America. These include asses, cattle, milk, horses, oxen, sheep, swine, goats, elephants, wheat, barley, figs, silk, steel, bellows, brass, breast plates, chains, iron working, plows, swords, scimitars, and chariots. The Smithsonian Institution has stated that "none of the principal food plants and domestic animals of the Old World (except the dog) were present in the New World before Columbus.



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The native Americans were not a lost tribe of Israel.
Nobody claims that this is absolute truth. Did anybody claim that Native Americans are lost tribe of Israel?


Genetics and the Book of Mormon at Wikipedia Wrote:The Book of Mormon, one of the four books of scripture of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is an account of three groups of people. Two of these groups, according to the Book of Mormon, originated from Israel. There is generally no support amongst mainstream historians and archaeologists for the historicity of the Book of Mormon.



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  None of the studied dialects and languages of the American people have any linguistic resemblance to languages used in Mesopotamia, whereas languages in that region have fairly clear evolutionary lines. It also does not agree with genetic evidence which indicated beyond a reasonable doubt that the native peoples of the Americas were most likely immigrants from Asia across the Bering Straight during the last Ice Age.
About language. There is evidence that there is resemblence. About Indians - I read Book of Mormon that is why I am not concerned about that they are immigrants from Asia. People of Book of Mormon were immigrants from different parts of the world. So I am not surprised that Indians have among their ancestors those who are from Asia.


False.

Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon at Wikipedia Wrote:The Book of Mormon account refers to various groups of literate peoples, at least one of which is described as using a language and writing system with roots in Hebrew and Egyptian. Archaeological evidence has been found for five or six different Mesoamerican scripts, but archaeological dating methods make it difficult to establish which was earliest (and hence the forebear from which the others developed) and a significant portion of the documented scripts have not been deciphered. None of the documented Mesoamerican language scripts have any known relation to Hebrew or Egyptian. The Book of Mormon describes another literate culture, the Jaredites, but does not identify the language or writing system by name. The text of the Book of Mormon refers only to a language used prior to the alleged confounding of languages at the great tower, presumed to refer to the Tower of Babel.

Linguistic studies on the evolution of the spoken languages of the Americas agree with the widely held model that the initial colonization of the Americas by Homo sapiens occurred over 10,000 years ago instead of during the time frame given in the Book of Mormon.



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Also, Smith could not decipher or read Egyptian hieroglyphics to save his life.
What do you mean?


Reformed Egyptian at Wikipedia Wrote:The Book of Mormon, a work of scripture of the Latter Day Saint movement, describes itself as having originally been written in reformed Egyptian characters on plates of metal or "ore" by prophets living in the Western Hemisphere from perhaps as early as 2600 BC until as late as AD 421. Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the church, published the Book of Mormon in 1830 as a translation of these golden plates. Scholarly reference works on languages do not, however, acknowledge the existence of either a "reformed Egyptian" language or "reformed Egyptian" script as it has been described in Mormon belief. No archaeological, linguistic, or other evidence of the use of Egyptian writing in ancient America has been discovered.



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Smith also says that they had silk clothing when there is no evidence of silk outside of China until the Babylonians managed to get their hands on their own silk worm eggs and began cultivating them in 522 CE.
Please what book, chapter?


Regarding the Jaredites...

Ether 9:17
Having all manner of fruit, and of grain, and of silks, and of fine linen, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious things;

Ether 10:24
And they did have silks, and fine-twined linen; and they did work all manner of cloth, that they might clothe themselves from their nakedness.



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The Book of Mormon mentions several animals, plants, and technologies for which there is no evidence in pre-Columbian America. These include asses, cattle, milk, horses, oxen, sheep, swine, goats, elephants, wheat, barley,figs, silk, steel, bellows, brass, breast plates, chains, iron working, plows, swords, scimitars, and chariots. The Smithsonian Institution has stated that "none of the principal food plants and domestic animals of the Old World (except the dog) were present in the New World before Columbus."
Which book of the Book of Mormon you are talking about? and chapter.


From the Skeptics Annotated Book of Mormon.


1 Nephi 16:18
I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel.

-And then it came to pass that Nephi broke his steel bow. Of course steel didn't exist at the time, wouldn't work well for a bow anyway, and would be hard to break. But, oh well. This is the Book of Mormon.

1 Nephi 18:24
And it came to pass that we did begin to till the earth, and we began to plant seeds; yea, we did put all our seeds into the earth, which we had brought from the land of Jerusalem. And it came to pass that they did grow exceedingly; wherefore, we were blessed in abundance.

-After arriving in the New World, Nephi and company planted all of the seeds that they brought from "the land of Jerusalem" and "they did grow exceedingly." Yet there is no evidence that Near Eastern crops ever grew in the New World in pre-Columbian times.

1 Nephi 4:9
And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

-Laban's sword blade was made of steel, long before steel existed.

1 Nephi 18:25
And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

-Nephi found cows, horses, oxen, asses, and goats and [wild] goats when he arrived in the New World in 590 BCE. Yet none of these domesticated animals existed in North America before the Europeans brought them over 2000 years later.


Now this is just a small selection of just the scientific and historical absurdities from just the first book of Nephi, but I can easily keep going. Drinking Beverage

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/BOM/sci/long.html



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  That's right, he claims they also had not just iron working, but that they also had steel. No iron artifacts match the places and dates, the native peoples of the America never developed iron; let alone steel. It would be one thing to not find iron and steel artifacts, but what about everything needed to create iron and steel items? Not only is there no evidence of any iron or steel items, there is no evidence of the industry required to make these items (mills, iron and coal mines, foundry's, etc.). It also is claimed to have occurred more than a millennia before the earliest evidence we have for these technologies. It would be the equivalent of the Roman Emperor Julius Caesar having an operational Boeing 737 thousands of years before the Wright Brother's first powered flight near Kitty Hawk in 1903.

It's one thing to loose a steel sword, quite another to loose the whole fucking steel mill. Dodgy
Please, book and chapter in BoM. And may be you open new thread. And I will respond. And please one item at the time. For example, first we can talk about elephants, then about steel, then about something else.
Please, this way is easier.

There is no evidence for any of them ever existing in the time and place described. I'm not going to sit here and just have you regurgitate weak Mormon apologetics and pseudo-science at me; because they are built upon no evidence or a skewed and selective interpretation of some evidence to fit their presuppositions while ignoring everything else that overwhelmingly contradicts them.

Start a new thread if it makes you feel better, you'll do nothing more than show just how little you know about reality.



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And according to the Koran, those 19 hijackers involved in the attacks on the World Trade Center twin towers are currently residing in Heaven with their own personal harem of 72 self replenishing virgins. Does this compel you to disavow your current faith and become a member of the One-Truth-Faith as a Muslim? My point? A claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
I understand your point. That is why nobody forces you to be a Mormon.

No you fucking don't, the point is not compulsion, the point is having evidence for your beliefs. Dodgy



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Among the 918 killed in Jonestown were over 200 children. They lost their lives because their parents were just as good at distinguishing fantasy from reality as you are. This is how delusional you are, just how broken your reasoning and evaluation of evidence is; and this is why people like you scare the ever living shit out of me. Once again you are just one 'divine revelation' away from doing something like this yourself; because your ability to discern fantasy from reality is dangerously broken.
When I tell you that God makes me do this kind of things then you can call me delusional.

You claim to already have had a divine revelation from your god, you're already delusional. Dodgy



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I don't want to see or hear of an innocent child paying the ultimate price because of your actions or lack thereof. Religious induced stupidity has a horrify trend of not limiting it's destruction to just itself.
Yes, false religions can bring force evil fruits.

How would having 'the one true religion' prevent people from doing evil? Do you claim to have 'the one true religion', and thus are immune from such decisions? Are you claiming that Mormons have never committed evil acts? Consider



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Who wants eternal life? Forever is a long time.
I do and many millions of LDS.

Because you lack a sufficient understanding of the concept of eternity.

QualiaSoup Wrote:Now I can't imagine eternity, I don't think the human brain can. But I've heard several variations on the following description which attempts to give a glimpse at what that unimaginable length of time would feel like. Picture a solid bronze planet as big as the sun. Every century a bird flies past, brushing it's wing once against the planet as it does so. When the bird's wing has eventually worn away the planet down to nothing, that will be just the end of the first day of eternity.



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Also your desire for an eternal afterlife is not evidence for the existence of said afterlife; nor is it evidence for the existence of Heaven or Hell.
Yes.

The first reasonable thing you've said. Drinking Beverage



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Please provide evidence for any of the claims you've made here. How do you know families will be together forever? Where would they be? So please also provide evidence for the state and location of eternal souls, and that they consist of bonded family units.
I can not provide evidence to you. I don't know how to do this. But I can answer your questions. I know that families can be together forever by the power of the Holy Ghost. They will live near Kolob on this Earth.

If you cannot provide evidence, then all of your answers are worthless; because they are not answers, they are baseless conjectures and assumptions.

So without evidence, you do not actually know anything about an afterlife, gods, or fucking Kolob.



(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Remembering once again that holy books, religion, and faith are not evidence; they are the claims.
Of course. I am aware of that.

You can claim that, but everything else you say points to the contrary. You feel justified in believing a lot of bat-shit crazy stuff without evidence.







(03-01-2014 04:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(03-01-2014 02:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  If you knew anything about the nature of reality, cosmology, biology, and evolution; you'd understand why the super-natural is not needed to explain any of it. Anything super-natural (including gods) is an unnecessary assumption in our understating of reality and pursuit of truth.
I don't believe in super natural things/gods.

Your supposed afterlife on Kolob is super-natural... Dodgy

And if you don't believe in gods, that makes you an atheist...



:EDIT:

Well, fuck. Looks like everyone already dog-piled you while I was busy writing this up... Big Grin

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