The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
04-01-2014, 12:26 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 08:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  OK. I agree. But what is false about this story?

The problem is that it is just a story and not history.

Quote:what do you mean "better"? in what way better?

Better in every conceivable way.

Quote:So? what does it mean according to you?

Then the BoM does not have divine origins.

Quote:Yes, but where is the proof that those "evidence" are true?

All of the anachronisms, historical errors and other absurdities of the BoM.

Quote:True. I just trust Him. I didn't catch Him lying to me yet. Smile

How would you catch Him lying to you about something that you have no means of validating?

Quote:what is my understanding according to you? I still don't understand how it is irrational?

Because your beliefs about the material in the BoM are not derived from reason and evidence. Even your beliefs about the Holy Ghost are not based on reason or evidence. You said just above, "I just trust him". That is irrational.

Quote:I can not provide any evidence to you that is why there is no point to argue.

And that is why your beliefs regarding religion are entirely irrational.

Quote:But God can provide evidence to me.

Your feelings aren't evidence of anything objective. Feelings are not facts. How do you know that when you think you are communing with the Holy Ghost you aren't just talking to yourself? Seriously, how do you know that what you experience as the Holy Ghost isn't just you?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Chippy's post
04-01-2014, 03:03 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(04-01-2014 12:26 AM)Chippy Wrote:  Your feelings aren't evidence of anything objective. Feelings are not facts. How do you know that when you think you are communing with the Holy Ghost you aren't just talking to yourself? Seriously, how do you know that what you experience as the Holy Ghost isn't just you?

^This.

[Image: GrumpyCat_01.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
04-01-2014, 03:48 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(03-01-2014 07:09 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  As soon as you go down the path of willful child torture, people stop caring about any good you might have done.
I don't disagree with you.
What you're doing here however, is confusing two points.
The first point is my reply to Baruch. That being Baruch's declaration of "God is..."
But Baruch doesn't believe in a god.
Yet Baruch, in discussion with alla, decides to give a god in which he doesn't believe not only attributes, but decides to pass judgement on what he doesn't believe. Obviously he is doing this to be illustrative in his disagreement with Alla. Yet in his response he IS opening himself up to the same, within the argument.
Regardless of ones motives, once one uses "is", then it's fair game.

RobbyPants Wrote:No, that is a cop out, because you're making excuses for it and refusing to consider whether or not it's actually good. You're just accepting it as good by changing your definition of "good" to include "willful child torture, so long as it comes from God".

That's the biggest type of cop out.
No. Again, this is what I said;
(03-01-2014 01:52 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  As a believer, I defer to the judgement of the God I believe in. Yet I do not pad it for myself as many of my brethren do. That is to say, if a thing is "good", then it comes from God. If "evil", God permits it. It's all on Gods shoulders from my point of view.
Speaking to the second point, I'll explain further.
As a believer in a God, I do not have the intellectual "movement" that a non-believer has when discussing, good or evil as is projected onto their hypothetical god. (Usually for the sake of making examples, such as what is and has occurred here.) As these examples are generally always based upon the persons human experience, in which of course is nothing wrong with that, coming from a non-believer. Which is why you say,
RobbyPants Wrote:Just because a person does good things doesn't mean...
But since the understanding of my belief tells me that the God I believe in is no man or person, I am unable to hold that God accountable in the same fashion that I would a human being.
As a believer of a God, in whom I believe has given me faith in a world in which no evidence is found, I am constrained by what I can absolutely state.
If you note in my original reply to you that I apply quotation marks when describing what is good /evil in the context of God. That is my way of acknowledging that I, as the created, understand and accept that the creator is responsible for all toward the creators goal.
This is my belief and understanding.
Which is why I agree that the God I believe in is responsible for all suffering in/on the world. To His good ends.

So this is in no way a "cop out", as my position is the most intellectually honest that can be had by a believer in an unprovable God.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 04:40 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 04:54 AM by Baruch.)
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Quote: Kestrel:Yet Baruch, in discussion with alla, decides to give a god in which he doesn't believe not only attributes, but decides to pass judgement on what he doesn't believe. Obviously he is doing this to be illustrative in his disagreement with Alla.

No Kestrel, you have seriously misjudged me. I used to be a religious orthodox teacher with my heart singing the praises of God for over a decade. "I knew" that I was infused with the spirit of God, especially when praying. When I am discussing the attributes of God (a barbaric cruel torturer) I am speaking from vast amounts of my own experience AND plenty of theological training and research. I am FULLY aware of all the theodicy literature and what it feels like to have a personal relationship with God. Its definitely fair game !!!

There were many reasons why I abandoned faith in a deity - and it was not some quick impulsive decision. One of those reasons was the annoying excuses given to justify Gods abundant cruelty - this was especially evident to me when working in a neurological ward treating patients with Parkinson's, stroke, Alzeimers and brain tumours. The sitting in a chair doing theodicy (providing justifications for God reasons for suffering, especially "natural evils") is sick & distorted. We have natural explanations for these cruelties based on pathology, biology, evolution etc and don't need a divine explanation.
However when I was a believer - the divine explanations where pathetic excuses, ignorance, delusions and utterly immoral. Not only can I pass judgment if a God existed - I MUST testify as to the barbaric nature of a personal deity so that people are not mislead and start blaming devils, original sin or worst of all other humans for natural disasters like Earthquakes (...eg Pat Robinson blaming Katrina on abortion policies & Gods Anger ! - demonstrated to me how appalling Christian excuses for their cruel deity can get !!!)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 05:04 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 05:14 AM by Baruch.)
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Quote:Kestrel: As a believer in a God, I do not have the intellectual "movement" that a non-believer has when discussing, good or evil as is projected onto their hypothetical god. (Usually for the sake of making examples, such as what is and has occurred here.) As these examples are generally always based upon the persons human experience, in which of course is nothing wrong with that, coming from a non-believer. Which is why you say,

My "judgment" of a hypothetical God is not based on only my personal experience. As it happens when I was religiously orthodox teacher, preacher and "infused with the spirit of God" my life was pretty much filled with abundant blessings.
The problem is when one looks BEYOND ones own situation at the actions of a God on a much larger scale - then we get to the barbaric, child abusing and torturing God on a massive scale making Gulags & concentration camps look like happy retreats. Why not pass judgment on such a God ? My mystify the actions of such a personal God in a veil of ignorance and not face up to the real facts ?

If I was to discover some extraordinary evidence God existed independent of the problem of Gods cruelties & torturous "natural evils" - it would still not make this judgment about God go away.
As it happens I have peace of mind now because scientific understandings of "natural evils" (disease, earthquakes, Tsunamis etc) make us aware they is not personal & humans are not the centre of special attention in the universe.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 05:34 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Quote:Kestrel: But since the understanding of my belief tells me that the God I believe in is no man or person, I am unable to hold that God accountable in the same fashion that I would a human being.

So Kestrel - any means no matter how apparently cruel justify the end goal including mass baby torture throughout the world ...and you can still associate love as one of Gods attributes ? The terminology of "love" would then become distorted and lose any meaning when applied to God.

Quote:As a believer of a God, in whom I believe has given me faith in a world in which no evidence is found, I am constrained by what I can absolutely state.
At least you admit there is no evidence - and quite right your honesty does constrain what you can state to very little.

Quote: I, as the created, understand and accept that the creator is responsible for all toward the creators goal.
This is my belief and understanding.
Which is why I agree that the God I believe in is responsible for all suffering in/on the world. To His good ends.

If God keeps "his good ends" a secret hidden mystery then this does not justify the mass torture of babies across the world (or whatever natural evil sufferings)
The only reason why we accept for example a surgeon to cause harm by making an incision is we know the goals of the surgeon are to improve our health - and we consent. If God cannot be bothered to clarify the goal of gratuitous suffering with evidence then it is right to count it as gross injustice. The fact that God tells you "on faith" is virtually meaningless. I would not send my kid to a surgeon "on faith" with no evidence whatsoever. [/i]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 05:46 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Addressing Alla's points on why an afterlife for Eternity makes no sense..

Quote:Chippy:Pick your favourite food and imagine you had a magic stomach. The magic stomach never fills so you can keep eating and you don't become fatter. If you can consume your favourite food in infinite quantites I'd guess that after 1000 years (and that is being generous) your favourite food will no longer bring you any pleasure.

Chippy's point applies to ANYTHING (physical luxuries, relationships, study etc) - if Alla you had an extra 200 years of opportunities then that might be a great afterlife.
Perhaps 1000 years even better ?
But forever turns any desired goal into meaninglessness. We need a limited time period to make genuine goals and contrasts eg with chippys analogy of eating the favourite food - once we put infinite opportunity/quantities/time we end up with absurdity and lack contrast between limited periods of lack/gain or pain/pleasure. Nothing to desire in eternal life !
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 05:49 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Baruch,
Fair enough.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 05:57 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Quote:
Quote:Alla: Eternal life is eternal progression.


Chippy:If eternal progression is possible, i.e. if the finish line keeps moving as it is approached then that would be a type of hell rather than a heaven. That would make eternal life entirely meaningless. All activity would be in vain because there is no end-goal and there is an infinity of time to not achieve an end-goal.

Alla - seriously consider Chippy's comments. All goals/ends/purposes presuppose a limited time period. Once you have "eternity" then the entire project becomes meaningless and progress unachievable - there is no "final destination" and all activity is in vain. Hence why Nietzsche considered religions preaching eternal afterlives to be nihilistic (of course anyone rational person can work this out - but I thought I'll add some Nietzsche who along with Camus thought much on this topic & how promises of eternal life are very shallow and detract from life lived now)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 06:21 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
Wise words on the topic of afterlife from Bertrand Russell:

Quote:“ I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting. Many a man has borne himself proudly on the scaffold; surely the same pride should teach us to think truly about man's place in the world. Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cosy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigour, and the great spaces have a splendour of their own.” Bertrand Russell

It is precisely the limited life span and prospect of annihilation that brings happiness, meaning and purpose. If it went on forever "eternity" then as discussed by myself & others on the forum meaning dissolves into an abyss of nihilism as no goal can ever be reached and no satisfaction ever gained - just endlessness.

In any case the fact we are born and have a beginning at one end of our life logically suggests our life has an expiry date at the other end. (otherwise weird asymmetry)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: