The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
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28-11-2013, 04:39 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(28-11-2013 09:10 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(28-11-2013 08:45 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The complete and utter lack of moral accountability.
Except I've shown that there are consequences for the morality of both the saved and unsaved.
Quote:You aren't primarily judged for your actions,
Yes, you're judged for your actions, and found guilty of your sins.
Quote:you're judge by which team your on. That doesn't at all strike you as spurious or suspicious? That strikes me as an idea not formed by a supposedly superior being, but rather as something thought up by someone trying to get as many people as they can onto their team (for the power and prestige that comes with having a larger team on Earth in this life).
No, you're granted mercy from the above judgment if you're on the right team. There's nothing unusual about this. I've seen atheist websites where atheists get more slack than Christians and vice versa. We like to help people who like us. God likes to help people who like him. In this analogy the ruler isn't given a title but apparently has the power of a king. Kings have exercised the pardon throughout history. They don't have to pardon everyone.

So you just admitted that god is more petty than any human?
These are very human characteristics for your god, dontchathink?

It's a pack mentality, where you support your team, and distrust all outsiders. Dogs do this. Humans do this. wouldn't your god transcend this type of very very very very very very petty behavior? Not a very flattering light for your god.

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30-11-2013, 08:34 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(28-11-2013 09:50 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  No, see point above. The primary determinate is your team, not your actions; they are secondary. That is not moral accountability, that's favoritism.

This. This is probably the most concise summary of what I've been trying to say. Thank you.


(28-11-2013 04:25 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Well, semi recently the Pope said Atheists can go to heaven. That belief in God wasn't necessary. That's a relief.

Don't tell that to the Protestants. They don't believe that. It's funny: being raised Lutheran, I was always under the impression growing up that Catholics were the strict ones. I realized most of that was just a strictness in hierarchy and liturgy, but not really in actual theology.


(28-11-2013 04:39 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  So you just admitted that god is more petty than any human?
These are very human characteristics for your god, dontchathink?

It's a pack mentality, where you support your team, and distrust all outsiders. Dogs do this. Humans do this. wouldn't your god transcend this type of very very very very very very petty behavior? Not a very flattering light for your god.

Yeah, that's one of the things I don't like about this aspect of Christianity. It's really hard to describe God in a way that doesn't make him sound petty or like he has serious self esteem issues. The biggest sin in the whole world (and the only unforgivable one) is rejecting him, not things like rape or murder. I guess this is a side effect of believing that we all have immortal souls and nothing that happens to us in this life actually matters.
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30-11-2013, 08:43 AM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(28-11-2013 08:07 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  That's kind of a shallow argument there, Mr. Pants. Tongue

I need you to elaborate on that. Are you saying that the argument is bad, or that the character of it is shallow (or something else)?


(28-11-2013 08:07 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  When you're full of love, ya ain't got much room for hate.

/Evil_monster

Well, while I agree, and even note that Christians were given a directive to love, they aren't actually punished or rewarded based on whether or not they love. They aren't punished based on good or bad behavior. They're punished based on an oath of allegiance. Like it or not, humans are motivated by carrots and sticks.
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30-11-2013, 09:21 AM (This post was last modified: 30-11-2013 11:14 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(30-11-2013 08:43 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I need you to elaborate on that.

For one, note the slash-monster is indicative of "end devil's advocacy," and whatever now follows is not sanction of Christianity. Big Grin

Every once in a while I revert to "theist prophet mode" lest I feel I'm not fulfilling my brief. The analogy presented addresses materialistic concerns, where "acceptance of Holy Spirit" is an emotional entanglement. One does not "swear allegiance to god" so much as "become of god" in harmonious expression of universal emergence. One is the petal of the flower unconsumed by the carnal corruption of material desire, to express beauty rather than devour it. Angel

Dang Gwynnies.

Say like life is this big ol' assembly line and we're just a bunch of cogs stamped from a machine (known as living life) and some cogs are defects (distracted by ego and personal aggrandizement) and are swept into the bin (hell) by quality control (god.) Is that better? Big Grin

Of course I have zero belief in absurdities such as heaven and hell, but what I do have is a ridiculous and relentless infatuation with a certain movie star that fills me with smiles and joy and ludicrous happy-hippie-horsehit where I find no contentment in self-worship nor consumer consumption but rather just being the idiotic lovesick puppy that I am. Tends to make people around me smile. Thumbsup

Which doesn't always express on these forums (cause I'm kind of a douchebag) yet the mandate of the prophet is a moral expression of the collective unconsciousness which presently knows that contemporary theology is a vector of magnitude contemptible bullshit. Angel

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30-11-2013, 01:08 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(30-11-2013 09:21 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  For one, note the slash-monster is indicative of "end devil's advocacy," and whatever now follows is not sanction of Christianity. Big Grin

Ah. That right there clears everything up. Thanks. Big Grin
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30-11-2013, 01:11 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(30-11-2013 01:08 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(30-11-2013 09:21 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  For one, note the slash-monster is indicative of "end devil's advocacy," and whatever now follows is not sanction of Christianity. Big Grin

Ah. That right there clears everything up. Thanks. Big Grin

That was easy. Why'd I write all the rest of that stuff? Dang Gwynnies. Heart

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23-12-2013, 09:14 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(27-11-2013 07:36 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Imagine I start a country and have the ability enforce my will. In my country, I create various laws. I say it is illegal to do certain things like murder, steal, rape, and lie. I also say that you have to swear allegiance to me. Now, if you swear allegiance, you get all the benefits of a citizen of my country (and we'll assume my country is pretty rad), but if you don't, I lock you in a dungeon for the rest of your days and have you tortured. No takesies backsies, either. You stay in there until you die. As for the punishments for the other crimes (murder, theft, etc)... there are none. If I walk down the street and see you killing a guy, I'd say "Hey, that's illegal!", and when you ask me what I'm going to do about it, I'd say "Nothing!", and presumably make sure you swore allegiance to me.

And that's the punishment and reward system that Christianity gives us (well, except the rape part. They don't explicitly forbid that).

How many orphanages do you have to build or lives do you have to save to get into heaven? How many to stay out of hell? There is no answer, because that's not part of the criteria. How many living babies do you have to eat before you won't get let into heaven? Again, there is no answer. Baby-eaters that swear the proper oath of fealty before they die get eternal reward, and orphanage builders who didn't swear the oath because it didn't make sense (or, even worse, they were raised in the wrong religion!) get tortured for eternity. There's no accountability, other than that you'd better swear your oath before you unexpectedly get hit by a truck, or something. Even then, you can can swear the oath, sin, repent, sin, repent, ad infinitum.

The best counter I've seen to this is the No True Scotsman of "Well, a true Christian wouldn't be bad like that", but that's just a nebulous claim to try to remove the obvious abuses. There's no basis for it other than that it makes people uncomfortable to think about, so they assume there must be something God does to try to sync his punishment/reward system with something more sane that we might actually expect.

You didn't say the reason WHY you started your country with all your laws.Consider

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23-12-2013, 09:23 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(23-12-2013 09:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(27-11-2013 07:36 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Imagine I start a country and have the ability enforce my will. In my country, I create various laws. I say it is illegal to do certain things like murder, steal, rape, and lie. I also say that you have to swear allegiance to me. Now, if you swear allegiance, you get all the benefits of a citizen of my country (and we'll assume my country is pretty rad), but if you don't, I lock you in a dungeon for the rest of your days and have you tortured. No takesies backsies, either. You stay in there until you die. As for the punishments for the other crimes (murder, theft, etc)... there are none. If I walk down the street and see you killing a guy, I'd say "Hey, that's illegal!", and when you ask me what I'm going to do about it, I'd say "Nothing!", and presumably make sure you swore allegiance to me.

And that's the punishment and reward system that Christianity gives us (well, except the rape part. They don't explicitly forbid that).

How many orphanages do you have to build or lives do you have to save to get into heaven? How many to stay out of hell? There is no answer, because that's not part of the criteria. How many living babies do you have to eat before you won't get let into heaven? Again, there is no answer. Baby-eaters that swear the proper oath of fealty before they die get eternal reward, and orphanage builders who didn't swear the oath because it didn't make sense (or, even worse, they were raised in the wrong religion!) get tortured for eternity. There's no accountability, other than that you'd better swear your oath before you unexpectedly get hit by a truck, or something. Even then, you can can swear the oath, sin, repent, sin, repent, ad infinitum.

The best counter I've seen to this is the No True Scotsman of "Well, a true Christian wouldn't be bad like that", but that's just a nebulous claim to try to remove the obvious abuses. There's no basis for it other than that it makes people uncomfortable to think about, so they assume there must be something God does to try to sync his punishment/reward system with something more sane that we might actually expect.

You didn't say the reason WHY you started your country with all your laws.Consider

And your god didn't say why he created the world. Dodgy

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23-12-2013, 09:25 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(23-12-2013 09:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 09:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  You didn't say the reason WHY you started your country with all your laws.Consider

And your god didn't say why he created the world. Dodgy
Actually He did.

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23-12-2013, 09:40 PM
RE: The Christian God incentivizes the wrong things
(23-12-2013 09:25 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(23-12-2013 09:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  And your god didn't say why he created the world. Dodgy
Actually He did.

Please provide a citation.

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