The Christian delusion
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31-03-2016, 05:33 PM
The Christian delusion
Or "why can't I believe what I want?!?"

Often times in discussions with Christians that line comes up. Usually it comes when said Christian realizes they are completely outclassed by the atheist they had been speaking to. The petulant whine of a child or a con-man who has been called out and knows they have no other option, it is supposed to make the atheist look like a bully who is trying to take the safety blanket away from a defenseless victim.

The Christian believes that Jesus died, that he bled out while on the cross and was placed into a tomb after his heart stopped beating. He was dead for days and then miraculously got back up and walked around. But if pressed the delusion of this is revealed, and irrevocably so.

Upon death the heart stops beating and the brain becomes deprived of oxygen. Within minutes the neurons begin to decay. In less than an hour without oxygen the brain has suffered such damage as to make breathing and other involuntary processes impossible, to say nothing of motor functions like walking or higher cognitive processes. This is of course ignoring the breakdown of the receptors in the muscles themselves within hours of death, making any future contraction or movement impossible.

So by what mechanism did Jesus get up and walk again? No, his wounds were not healed. Thomas put his fingers in the open wound, one of the wounds from which he bled out. So there was no blood and no oxygen to the brain. So how, physically, did Jesus walk around? Still ignoring the talking and preaching, this is simple movement. What mechanism caused the muscles to contract and relax without the transmitters which had already decayed?

There is no answer. And I propose the Christian knows there is no answer. They know this belief is a delusion. Reality follows certain rules and mechanisms are needed if an apparent breach of the rules appears. They have no mechanism, no answer. Nearly a preferred delusion.

Now if the delusion was benign I could see the point to letting them have it. Instead they insist that I feed into it. They insist that I accept their delusion and help them support it.

And I refuse to do so.

Just because you want to hold that the oatmeal raisin cookies are chocolate chip does not obligate me to tell you how chocolatey they are. I'm not going to argue with whether they are milk chocolate or dark chocolate chips. And when you try and push them on me I am under to obligation to take one.

They can be wrong all they want. But they can't expect to not get called out on it.

/rant
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31-03-2016, 05:36 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(31-03-2016 05:33 PM)natachan Wrote:  What mechanism caused the muscles to contract and relax without the transmitters which had already decayed?

There is no answer. And I propose the Christian knows there is no answer. They know this belief is a delusion.

No. Christians believe it was a miracle - that is to say, magic. Magic can do whatever the hell it likes.

It's a very, very silly belief, but it is sincere nonetheless.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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31-03-2016, 06:33 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(31-03-2016 05:36 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 05:33 PM)natachan Wrote:  What mechanism caused the muscles to contract and relax without the transmitters which had already decayed?

There is no answer. And I propose the Christian knows there is no answer. They know this belief is a delusion.

No. Christians believe it was a miracle - that is to say, magic. Magic can do whatever the hell it likes.

It's a very, very silly belief, but it is sincere nonetheless.

Exactly, with magic you can do anything and every time I've asked a Christian what the point was of having Jesus "die" for our sins and then just come back they say something along the lines of "To show he can defeat death!" So yes human bodies will decay but not his body, God can bring him back or bring himself back in super duper zombie mode and still be able to walk and talk with open wounds.

With that kind of logic there is nothing to stop us from saying "Well, I can believe what I want and I believe the story of Jesus is fake and myth just like all magical tales of old." If they dismiss other magic stories there is really no reason for them not to dismiss this one as well. The only thing they can say is "Well, I feel it in my heart that it's true." Well my heart says it isn't plus I have some evidence here to show it's not possible, where's your evidence besides an old book? They don't have any, the end.

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31-03-2016, 06:46 PM (This post was last modified: 31-03-2016 06:59 PM by Leo.)
RE: The Christian delusion
(31-03-2016 05:33 PM)natachan Wrote:  Or "why can't I believe what I want?!?"

Often times in discussions with Christians that line comes up. Usually it comes when said Christian realizes they are completely outclassed by the atheist they had been speaking to. The petulant whine of a child or a con-man who has been called out and knows they have no other option, it is supposed to make the atheist look like a bully who is trying to take the safety blanket away from a defenseless victim.

The Christian believes that Jesus died, that he bled out while on the cross and was placed into a tomb after his heart stopped beating. He was dead for days and then miraculously got back up and walked around. But if pressed the delusion of this is revealed, and irrevocably so.

Upon death the heart stops beating and the brain becomes deprived of oxygen. Within minutes the neurons begin to decay. In less than an hour without oxygen the brain has suffered such damage as to make breathing and other involuntary processes impossible, to say nothing of motor functions like walking or higher cognitive processes. This is of course ignoring the breakdown of the receptors in the muscles themselves within hours of death, making any future contraction or movement impossible.

So by what mechanism did Jesus get up and walk again? No, his wounds were not healed. Thomas put his fingers in the open wound, one of the wounds from which he bled out. So there was no blood and no oxygen to the brain. So how, physically, did Jesus walk around? Still ignoring the talking and preaching, this is simple movement. What mechanism caused the muscles to contract and relax without the transmitters which had already decayed?

There is no answer. And I propose the Christian knows there is no answer. They know this belief is a delusion. Reality follows certain rules and mechanisms are needed if an apparent breach of the rules appears. They have no mechanism, no answer. Nearly a preferred delusion.

Now if the delusion was benign I could see the point to letting them have it. Instead they insist that I feed into it. They insist that I accept their delusion and help them support it.

And I refuse to do so.

Just because you want to hold that the oatmeal raisin cookies are chocolate chip does not obligate me to tell you how chocolatey they are. I'm not going to argue with whether they are milk chocolate or dark chocolate chips. And when you try and push them on me I am under to obligation to take one.

They can be wrong all they want. But they can't expect to not get called out on it.

/rant
Maybe Jesus survived the crucifixion ? and that is assuming , the jesus story is somewhat based in real life events. Jesus was on the cross between 6 hours and 9 hours . According to John Jesus was crucified at noon or a little after noon and the body was taken down from the cross a little before sunset. According to Mark Jesus was crucified at 9:00 am , died about 3:00 pm and was taken down from the cross a little before sunset. So 9 hours max according to synoptic gospels. Pilate was surprised that Jesus was already death because death by crucifixion took a long time , atleast 2 days. Often 3-4 days.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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31-03-2016, 07:31 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
Well, Jesus is both god and the father. So his death was a fake. As was his resurrection. Gods cannot be killed by humans. Idiots believe it because they're idiots. Regardless of how sincere they are.

On the whole, people are not that bright.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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31-03-2016, 08:00 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
There is not even total agreement on whether it as a "spiritual" or "physical" resurrection.

In a spiritual resurrection, the body disappeared and he was reborn into a spiritual body that could walk through locked doors, scare apostles and be physical enough for contact and eating.

In a physical resurrection, the body revived and regained life, even though it still bore the wounds.

Talk to a theologian and press for details about which one it was. Then watch the shuffling begin...

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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31-03-2016, 08:02 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
Quote:The petulant whine of a child or a con-man who has been called out


I thought you were going to talk about Trump for a moment there.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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31-03-2016, 08:04 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(31-03-2016 06:46 PM)Leo Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 05:33 PM)natachan Wrote:  Or "why can't I believe what I want?!?"

Often times in discussions with Christians that line comes up. Usually it comes when said Christian realizes they are completely outclassed by the atheist they had been speaking to. The petulant whine of a child or a con-man who has been called out and knows they have no other option, it is supposed to make the atheist look like a bully who is trying to take the safety blanket away from a defenseless victim.

The Christian believes that Jesus died, that he bled out while on the cross and was placed into a tomb after his heart stopped beating. He was dead for days and then miraculously got back up and walked around. But if pressed the delusion of this is revealed, and irrevocably so.

Upon death the heart stops beating and the brain becomes deprived of oxygen. Within minutes the neurons begin to decay. In less than an hour without oxygen the brain has suffered such damage as to make breathing and other involuntary processes impossible, to say nothing of motor functions like walking or higher cognitive processes. This is of course ignoring the breakdown of the receptors in the muscles themselves within hours of death, making any future contraction or movement impossible.

So by what mechanism did Jesus get up and walk again? No, his wounds were not healed. Thomas put his fingers in the open wound, one of the wounds from which he bled out. So there was no blood and no oxygen to the brain. So how, physically, did Jesus walk around? Still ignoring the talking and preaching, this is simple movement. What mechanism caused the muscles to contract and relax without the transmitters which had already decayed?

There is no answer. And I propose the Christian knows there is no answer. They know this belief is a delusion. Reality follows certain rules and mechanisms are needed if an apparent breach of the rules appears. They have no mechanism, no answer. Nearly a preferred delusion.

Now if the delusion was benign I could see the point to letting them have it. Instead they insist that I feed into it. They insist that I accept their delusion and help them support it.

And I refuse to do so.

Just because you want to hold that the oatmeal raisin cookies are chocolate chip does not obligate me to tell you how chocolatey they are. I'm not going to argue with whether they are milk chocolate or dark chocolate chips. And when you try and push them on me I am under to obligation to take one.

They can be wrong all they want. But they can't expect to not get called out on it.

/rant
Maybe Jesus survived the crucifixion ? and that is assuming , the jesus story is somewhat based in real life events. Jesus was on the cross between 6 hours and 9 hours . According to John Jesus was crucified at noon or a little after noon and the body was taken down from the cross a little before sunset. According to Mark Jesus was crucified at 9:00 am , died about 3:00 pm and was taken down from the cross a little before sunset. So 9 hours max according to synoptic gospels. Pilate was surprised that Jesus was already death because death by crucifixion took a long time , atleast 2 days. Often 3-4 days.

It is believed, and I don't know if scriptures actually mention it, that Jesus didn't die from his crucifiction, but was speared by legionnaire who was sick if standing watch before the poor guy.

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31-03-2016, 08:04 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(31-03-2016 06:46 PM)Leo Wrote:  Maybe Jesus survived the crucifixion ? and that is assuming , the jesus story is somewhat based in real life events. Jesus was on the cross between 6 hours and 9 hours . According to John Jesus was crucified at noon or a little after noon and the body was taken down from the cross a little before sunset. According to Mark Jesus was crucified at 9:00 am , died about 3:00 pm and was taken down from the cross a little before sunset. So 9 hours max according to synoptic gospels. Pilate was surprised that Jesus was already death because death by crucifixion took a long time , atleast 2 days. Often 3-4 days.

Yes. crucifixion kills you by suffocation. The angle of the arms puts all the body weight on your chest/torso. When the legs get too tired, you sag and the weight of the body means the chest muscles can't function.

The nails in hands and feet make everything more painful. It can take days to die because you can keep shifting weight (despite the pain) until all your muscles give out.

Relatives would sometimes bribe the soldiers to break the victim's legs, so that the death was quicker.

So, yes, a person could have survived a crucifixion of that length.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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31-03-2016, 08:09 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(31-03-2016 08:04 PM)epronovost Wrote:  It is believed, and I don't know if scriptures actually mention it, that Jesus didn't die from his crucifiction, but was speared by legionnaire who was sick if standing watch before the poor guy.

Quote:John
19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

John is the only gospel that mentions spearing.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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