The Christian delusion
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31-03-2016, 08:09 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(31-03-2016 07:31 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Well, Jesus is both god and the father. So his death was a fake. As was his resurrection. Gods cannot be killed by humans. Idiots believe it because they're idiots. Regardless of how sincere they are.

On the whole, people are not that bright.

Humans can kill gods if those gods want it. God spent several thousand years how to get this murder done. And being God he can do it if he wants to!
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31-03-2016, 08:15 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
I went to a discussion on christardology recently. We discussed why it was that christardology was just a set of stupid beliefs which people should no longer believe in - and yet, billions of people still do.

We discussed that the Exodus had all but been disproved as had the Flood. We also discussed that the evidence that jebus existed wasn't that strong. In fact, it was flimsy (at best). These should have been more than enough to set rational people thinking and criticising their belief system and yet, christards don't. Why is this? Does it imply that christards are irrational?

Some interesting theories came out of the discussion.

Firstly, disbelief does not come about by others disproving. It comes about when the believer questions their own belief system.

Secondly, christardology is a belief "system". It doesn't only include belief in a deity, it includes bonding with other believers - just as some Atheists on here have bonded with other Atheists. Those bonds may have resulted in marriages and children. They may have resulted in mutual help and assistance. They may also have resulted in social networks being created. The belief in a deity may actually just be a small part of of a much larger system which may well consist of many nodes which may be inter-connected though many networks.

As a result, questioning their belief system, and disproving some of their beliefs, may have no effect whatsoever because all that's happened is that a few nodes have been destroyed. The majority of the nodes and networks that constitute their belief system are still in tact and they will continue to believe in much the same way that they believed in before their beliefs were disproved.

So, we may be able to disprove Exodus and the Flood but do not expect christards to stop believing in christardology. It's not going to happen.

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01-04-2016, 12:46 AM
RE: The Christian delusion
If christians weren't trying to force their taboos onto others and spread the indoctrination I couldn't care less about their silly beliefs. It's their life which is lived in ignorance, not mine after all.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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01-04-2016, 02:52 AM
RE: The Christian delusion
(31-03-2016 08:09 PM)DerFish Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 07:31 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Well, Jesus is both god and the father. So his death was a fake. As was his resurrection. Gods cannot be killed by humans. Idiots believe it because they're idiots. Regardless of how sincere they are.

On the whole, people are not that bright.

Humans can kill gods if those gods want it. God spent several thousand years how to get this murder done. And being God he can do it if he wants to!

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-04-2016, 03:13 AM
RE: The Christian delusion
I personally don't give a rat's arse what people believe in provided they avoid:
  • thinking it entitles them to dictate to others what they should believe
  • demanding privileges based on their beliefs
  • assuming that their religion gives them privileges
  • thinking that morality is rooted in those beliefs
  • imposing their version of "morality" on anyone else
  • restricting the rights of non-believers
  • persecuting non-believers
  • indoctrinating their children with their bizarre beliefs
  • assuming that only they have the rights to any truths, particularly absolute ones
  • cherry-picking from their religious texts to justify their actions
  • insisting that the more "uncomfortable" elements of their religious texts are "metaphors" or "allegorical"
  • misrepresenting science and empirical evidence in support of their beliefs

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01-04-2016, 07:33 AM
RE: The Christian delusion
(31-03-2016 05:33 PM)natachan Wrote:  Or "why can't I believe what I want?!?"

Often times in discussions with Christians that line comes up. Usually it comes when said Christian realizes they are completely outclassed by the atheist they had been speaking to. The petulant whine of a child or a con-man who has been called out and knows they have no other option, it is supposed to make the atheist look like a bully who is trying to take the safety blanket away from a defenseless victim.

The Christian believes that Jesus died, that he bled out while on the cross and was placed into a tomb after his heart stopped beating. He was dead for days and then miraculously got back up and walked around. But if pressed the delusion of this is revealed, and irrevocably so.

Upon death the heart stops beating and the brain becomes deprived of oxygen. Within minutes the neurons begin to decay. In less than an hour without oxygen the brain has suffered such damage as to make breathing and other involuntary processes impossible, to say nothing of motor functions like walking or higher cognitive processes. This is of course ignoring the breakdown of the receptors in the muscles themselves within hours of death, making any future contraction or movement impossible.

So by what mechanism did Jesus get up and walk again? No, his wounds were not healed. Thomas put his fingers in the open wound, one of the wounds from which he bled out. So there was no blood and no oxygen to the brain. So how, physically, did Jesus walk around? Still ignoring the talking and preaching, this is simple movement. What mechanism caused the muscles to contract and relax without the transmitters which had already decayed?

There is no answer. And I propose the Christian knows there is no answer. They know this belief is a delusion. Reality follows certain rules and mechanisms are needed if an apparent breach of the rules appears. They have no mechanism, no answer. Nearly a preferred delusion.

Now if the delusion was benign I could see the point to letting them have it. Instead they insist that I feed into it. They insist that I accept their delusion and help them support it.

And I refuse to do so.

Just because you want to hold that the oatmeal raisin cookies are chocolate chip does not obligate me to tell you how chocolatey they are. I'm not going to argue with whether they are milk chocolate or dark chocolate chips. And when you try and push them on me I am under to obligation to take one.

They can be wrong all they want. But they can't expect to not get called out on it.

/rant

The idea of vicarious redemption is ludicrous. Christianity is all about the unearned. It's about unearned forgiveness, unearned knowledge, unearned self esteem, unearned love. They need your help to believe. When you don't help them to pretend that their beliefs are true, they get scared. I think the most frightening thing for a Christian is not the prospect of hell but the sight of someone who is not afraid to judge and stand by that judgment.

The answer to the question of why they can't believe what they want is the primacy of existence. I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record but that's only because this issue applies to literally everything having to do with knowledge. Its at the heart of everything. Reality does not conform to our wishing or believing.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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01-04-2016, 10:11 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(31-03-2016 05:36 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 05:33 PM)natachan Wrote:  What mechanism caused the muscles to contract and relax without the transmitters which had already decayed?

There is no answer. And I propose the Christian knows there is no answer. They know this belief is a delusion.

No. Christians believe it was a miracle - that is to say, magic. Magic can do whatever the hell it likes.

It's a very, very silly belief, but it is sincere nonetheless.

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01-04-2016, 11:03 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
I go for the ankles and knees. Theism/Atheism is premature until we talk about the elephant in the room. Any promise of a postmortem preservation of personal identity is utter and complete bullshit that relies on dualism. Dualism is untenable. Many have tried. All have failed.

I feel a little bad about when I told this to my mom some 40 years ago. She still prays for me. God bless her.

#sigh
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03-04-2016, 05:32 AM
RE: The Christian delusion
(01-04-2016 07:33 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(31-03-2016 05:33 PM)natachan Wrote:  Or "why can't I believe what I want?!?"

Often times in discussions with Christians that line comes up. Usually it comes when said Christian realizes they are completely outclassed by the atheist they had been speaking to. The petulant whine of a child or a con-man who has been called out and knows they have no other option, it is supposed to make the atheist look like a bully who is trying to take the safety blanket away from a defenseless victim.

The Christian believes that Jesus died, that he bled out while on the cross and was placed into a tomb after his heart stopped beating. He was dead for days and then miraculously got back up and walked around. But if pressed the delusion of this is revealed, and irrevocably so.

Upon death the heart stops beating and the brain becomes deprived of oxygen. Within minutes the neurons begin to decay. In less than an hour without oxygen the brain has suffered such damage as to make breathing and other involuntary processes impossible, to say nothing of motor functions like walking or higher cognitive processes. This is of course ignoring the breakdown of the receptors in the muscles themselves within hours of death, making any future contraction or movement impossible.

So by what mechanism did Jesus get up and walk again? No, his wounds were not healed. Thomas put his fingers in the open wound, one of the wounds from which he bled out. So there was no blood and no oxygen to the brain. So how, physically, did Jesus walk around? Still ignoring the talking and preaching, this is simple movement. What mechanism caused the muscles to contract and relax without the transmitters which had already decayed?

There is no answer. And I propose the Christian knows there is no answer. They know this belief is a delusion. Reality follows certain rules and mechanisms are needed if an apparent breach of the rules appears. They have no mechanism, no answer. Nearly a preferred delusion.

Now if the delusion was benign I could see the point to letting them have it. Instead they insist that I feed into it. They insist that I accept their delusion and help them support it.

And I refuse to do so.

Just because you want to hold that the oatmeal raisin cookies are chocolate chip does not obligate me to tell you how chocolatey they are. I'm not going to argue with whether they are milk chocolate or dark chocolate chips. And when you try and push them on me I am under to obligation to take one.

They can be wrong all they want. But they can't expect to not get called out on it.

/rant

The idea of vicarious redemption is ludicrous. Christianity is all about the unearned. It's about unearned forgiveness, unearned knowledge, unearned self esteem, unearned love. They need your help to believe. When you don't help them to pretend that their beliefs are true, they get scared. I think the most frightening thing for a Christian is not the prospect of hell but the sight of someone who is not afraid to judge and stand by that judgment.

The answer to the question of why they can't believe what they want is the primacy of existence. I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record but that's only because this issue applies to literally everything having to do with knowledge. Its at the heart of everything. Reality does not conform to our wishing or believing.

The idea of vicarious redemption is ludicrous. Christianity is all about the unearned. It's about unearned forgiveness, unearned knowledge, unearned self esteem, unearned love.

Oh, that's beautifully true. Thankyou! BowingBowingBowingBowing
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03-04-2016, 06:11 AM
RE: The Christian delusion
NO, not the "Christian Delusion". Sure that is what skeptics in the west deal with mostly, but religion, even the ones of Asia and the Orient, are still products of antiquity and are also rooted in mythology, superstition and scientific ignorance.

There was no written religion 200,000 years ago, much less 4 billion years ago, much less 14 billion years ago. It takes 1 ray of light 100,000 years at the speed of light to cross our galaxy full of BILLIONS of suns. Our known universe contains 100s of billions of galaxies. I don't care what religion we are talking about, even if you want to dodge the word "religion" and call it a philosophy, it is still a man made concoction and gap filling.

In 5 billion years our species will be long extinct, long before the sun expands and kills all life on this planet. No, it isn't that we can force religion out of existence, but we cannot give any religion a pedestal, or allow it to be a distraction to global problem solving.

Now, the most current trouble maker globally is not Christianity, or Jews or Islam, but in the ignorance by all three that the idea of a "chosen people" has given all three the false sense of "divine entitlement" which is the root cause of the divisions of the three. The only thing that can be said, is that Islam is still far too widely stuck in the past even if not all subscribe to the theocratic ideas. The west became more civil, in spite of Christianity, not because of it.

There has never been or ever will be such a thing as a perfectly unifying religion, OF ANY LABEL. Christianity has it's empathetic left that uses the same holy books as the ignorant right. Jews also have their empathetic left and Orthodox right. Islam has it's empathetic left and Orthodox right. But even Hindus and Buddhists have their umbrella labels with competing sub sects with the same range of liberal vs conservative sub sects.

The world needs to face, that our morality is not in the umbrella label, or the "correct" sub sect. Not even atheists agree on all things all the time. Our species ability to be cruel or compassionate is in our evolution, not our labels. The "cure" is to accept that there is no such thing as a utopia, and more acceptance that this is the only home all 7 billion of us live on. It would be wise that humans learn more to value reason and our common existence. It still remains that we are the same species.

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