The Christian delusion
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09-04-2016, 07:09 AM
RE: The Christian delusion
(08-04-2016 08:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  Why do you reject faith and demand evidence? I mean, there is nothing wrong with demanding evidence, but what is wrong with having faith according to you?
Because faith is open to manipulation. Faith is the tool of con artists and salesmen. When you are talking about basing your life on a belief system (say science or religion) you need evidence. Not faith.

(08-04-2016 08:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  What testimony have you seen that led you to your atheism?
The science that has disproved the bible.
The refutations of all the philosophical arguments for god.
The abuse and manipulation of all organized religions.
The lack of evidence supporting any of the biblical myths.

(08-04-2016 08:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  I asked " according to the scriptures" not catholic doctrine.
He died because some people wanted to kill Him, so he was killed. But in order to pay for the sins of others someone doesn't have to die. There is no claim(revelation) in the scriptures that to pay for sins of others = to be killed/to die.
I can't make it any clearer than what I said.

(08-04-2016 08:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  This is not what infinite atonement of Christ FOR SINS means. Not even close.
This not what "taking sins of others upon yourself" means.
We'll disagree then.

(08-04-2016 08:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  To wrong me = to sin or to break the law of God. Not forgive those who wrong me = to sin or to break law of God. If they repent of their sin they are free from this sin. If I repent of my sin(pride and that is why I don't forgive) I will be free from this sin.
The same law for all - REPENT of your own sins whatever they are.
If I don't learn to forgive I will not learn to be like God. This is the point of God's laws - to learn to be like Him/Them.
Being unwilling or unable to forgive someone is not pride.
Repenting of an action does not absolve one's guilt or erase the act.

According to the bible humans were thrown out of eden lest they eat from the second tree and become like god.

According to the bible the tower of babel was foiled lest humans become like god.

According to the bible we are worthless, sinless creatures who are unworthy of heaven unless christ sacrificed himself for us.

(08-04-2016 08:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, it is justice - if I break the law(I don't overcome my pride and thus I won't be able to forgive) and I don't repent I will not be forgiven.
Did god overcome his pride? Anger? Jealousy? Envy?
If god cannot, how can he expect you to?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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09-04-2016, 07:21 AM
RE: The Christian delusion
(08-04-2016 08:58 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(08-04-2016 08:34 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So, then the scripture writers that said "Doubting Thomas" put his finger "in the wounds" (of the resurrected Jebus) were liars ?
"Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." John 20:27

Alrighty then.

Facepalm
no, they were not liars. Have you ever heard about Carbonaro effect?
Jesus is even better than Carbonaro Wink

Carbonaro? isn't that one of those energy drinks?
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09-04-2016, 08:01 AM
RE: The Christian delusion
(08-04-2016 08:14 PM)Alla Wrote:  Why do you reject faith and demand evidence? I mean, there is nothing wrong with demanding evidence, but what is wrong with having faith according to you?

Can you name anything that can't be believed using faith?
If you have faith that something is true and somebody else has faith that it is not true how can we determine who is correct using faith?

Faith is not a path to knowledge or understanding.

(08-04-2016 11:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  I also have learned that GirlyMan is wonderful ManlyGirl.

Wrong again.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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09-04-2016, 08:58 AM
RE: The Christian delusion
That sounds like Dawkins or Hitchens, two people who devoted a significant percentage of their adult lives writing and talking about the supernatural world. At least Steve Allen was making people laugh when he was not complaining about Jews and Christians.

I suppose I could write an essay about two siblings who have psychics on standby, but I am too busy running an analytical lab and watching the Masters.

My Roman Catholic wife of 32 years has never asked me to join her religion. Like me, she would like to see repeal of the income tax deduction for all charitable contributions (the government support I think you were alluding to).

Atheism and anarchy are the default conditions for the human species. Religion and government have always been wonderful ways to influence or control the peasants. What I find fascinating is that the most vocal whiners about supernatural religions are the most ardent supporters of the secular religions of authoritarianism, totalitarianism, socialism, statism, or whatever you want to call it.
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09-04-2016, 10:28 AM
RE: The Christian delusion
(09-04-2016 12:18 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I'm anti-stupid, Christianity is just a by-product.
You are anti-Christian.
(09-04-2016 12:18 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So you still haven't learned jack-shit, color me not surprised.
Didn't I tell you that I had learned very important thing: GirlyMan is the most wonderful ManlyGirl?

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I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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09-04-2016, 11:37 AM
RE: The Christian delusion

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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09-04-2016, 11:44 AM
RE: The Christian delusion
(08-04-2016 11:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  I also have learned that GirlyMan is wonderful ManlyGirl.

You make an ambiguous argument.

#sigh
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09-04-2016, 11:47 AM
RE: The Christian delusion
(09-04-2016 10:28 AM)Alla Wrote:  Didn't I tell you that I had learned very important thing: GirlyMan is the most wonderful ManlyGirl?

You know they're two different people right?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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09-04-2016, 11:53 AM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2016 11:58 AM by Alla.)
RE: The Christian delusion
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Because faith is open to manipulation.
Your faith can not be manipulated by anybody. Let's say you have faith that God's words "forgive those who wrong you brings you happiness and makes of free from the bitterness" is TRUE principle. Then what happens next? You doing all you can to practice this principle. Then you have evidence that it is true. As soon as you forgive you are free from bitterness and you feel happy because of it.
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Faith is the tool of con artists and salesmen.

Faith is also the tool that makes me happy and doesn't make me miserable.
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  When you are talking about basing your life on a belief system (say science or religion) you need evidence. Not faith.
Faith brings forth actions. Actions bring evidence. When I have faith that to forgive others(god's Law) is important thing for me to do I act upon this faith. Then I have evidence why it is so important for me to forgive others. I understand why God wants me to forgive others. It brings me peace and happiness.
God Father wants me(His daughter) to be happy.
If I have faith that God's law "Word of Wisdom" is good for me I will act upon my faith. Then I have evidence that following this particular law makes me stronger, I can control my appetites. I am not as weak as I was before.
If man didn't have faith that he can walk on the Moon one day he would never even try to get there.
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I can't make it any clearer than what I said.
Yes, you are clear but you still didn't show where the scripture says that to pay for the sins of others = to be killed/to die
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  We'll disagree then.
Christ never taught that the atonement means what you say it means.
In your examples Mercy robs Justice. The point of the atonement of Christ is that mercy can not rob justice and justice can not rob mercy.
If you kill me and somebody else confesses and then goes to jail instead of you it will be mercy towards you for sure but it will be no justice.

(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Being unwilling or unable to forgive someone is not pride.
I didn't say it is. But pride is stopping someone from forgiving another. Get rid of pride and of being offended and it is so easy to forgive.
When you get rid of pride you are able TO CHOOSE not to be offended any more. The moment you are not offended any more you naturally forgive.
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Repenting of an action does not absolve one's guilt or erase the act.
I agree. But it has nothing to do with what Christ did. The infinite atonement of Christ is not that.
The atonement of Christ does one thing: it satisfies mercy without robbing Justice, it satisfy Justice without robbing Mercy. Without the atonement only Justice can be. Justice completely robs Mercy. It can not be Mercy.
If I kill you I have to pay price. It is Justice. If I am forgiven Justice is robbed.
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  According to the bible humans were thrown out of eden lest they eat from the second tree and become like god.
According to the Bible Adam and Eve became like gods before they were out of the garden of Eden. Tree of knowledge of good and evil gave them an opportunity to become like Gods to know good and evil. There is no way to KNOW evil if you live in paradise.
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Did god overcome his pride? Anger? Jealousy? Envy?
If god cannot, how can he expect you to?
Of course, He did, that is why He became God. That is why He provided a way for us to face Justice and to have Mercy. If Christ didn't atone God Father wouldn't be able to do this. His hands are tied by Laws.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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09-04-2016, 12:15 PM (This post was last modified: 09-04-2016 12:18 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Christian delusion
(08-04-2016 09:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(08-04-2016 09:11 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Whoever you are posting under Alla. Stop. And give her the fucking keyboard.
hmm, let me think, Bob. Consider
no. Tongue

so be it. I will miss Alla.

#sigh
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