The Christian delusion
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09-04-2016, 12:26 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(09-04-2016 08:01 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Can you name anything that can't be believed using faith?
I don't think so.
(09-04-2016 08:01 AM)unfogged Wrote:  If you have faith that something is true and somebody else has faith that it is not true how can we determine who is correct using faith?
Let's say I have faith that Christ's specific promises for doing specific things are true. Let's say they are true. But I don't have perfect knowledge of this truth yet.
I only can act upon my faith. Then I have the results of my actions. Then I see promises are true. My faith turns to perfect knowledge of the truth - promises are true. If I didn't have faith I wouldn't act upon it I wouldn't have that particular perfect knowledge.
If you don't see the results you can not determine yet. If you see opposite results you can determine they are not true.
(09-04-2016 08:01 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Faith is not a path to knowledge or understanding.

yes, it is. when you ACT upon it. If you don't act then your faith is dead and it is a path to anything.
(09-04-2016 08:01 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(08-04-2016 11:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  I also have learned that GirlyMan is wonderful ManlyGirl.
Wrong again.
why is it wrong?

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09-04-2016, 12:31 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(09-04-2016 12:15 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-04-2016 09:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  hmm, let me think, Bob. Consider
no. Tongue

so be it. I will miss Alla.
I will miss you too, dear GirlyMan Heart

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09-04-2016, 01:15 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(09-04-2016 11:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Because faith is open to manipulation.
Your faith can not be manipulated by anybody. Let's say you have faith that God's words "forgive those who wrong you brings you happiness and makes of free from the bitterness" is TRUE principle. Then what happens next? You doing all you can to practice this principle. Then you have evidence that it is true. As soon as you forgive you are free from bitterness and you feel happy because of it.
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Faith is the tool of con artists and salesmen.

Faith is also the tool that makes me happy and doesn't make me miserable.
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  When you are talking about basing your life on a belief system (say science or religion) you need evidence. Not faith.
Faith brings forth actions. Actions bring evidence. When I have faith that to forgive others(god's Law) is important thing for me to do I act upon this faith. Then I have evidence why it is so important for me to forgive others. I understand why God wants me to forgive others. It brings me peace and happiness.
God Father wants me(His daughter) to be happy.
If I have faith that God's law "Word of Wisdom" is good for me I will act upon my faith. Then I have evidence that following this particular law makes me stronger, I can control my appetites. I am not as weak as I was before.
If man didn't have faith that he can walk on the Moon one day he would never even try to get there.
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I can't make it any clearer than what I said.
Yes, you are clear but you still didn't show where the scripture says that to pay for the sins of others = to be killed/to die
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  We'll disagree then.
Christ never taught that the atonement means what you say it means.
In your examples Mercy robs Justice. The point of the atonement of Christ is that mercy can not rob justice and justice can not rob mercy.
If you kill me and somebody else confesses and then goes to jail instead of you it will be mercy towards you for sure but it will be no justice.

(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Being unwilling or unable to forgive someone is not pride.
I didn't say it is. But pride is stopping someone from forgiving another. Get rid of pride and of being offended and it is so easy to forgive.
When you get rid of pride you are able TO CHOOSE not to be offended any more. The moment you are not offended any more you naturally forgive.
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Repenting of an action does not absolve one's guilt or erase the act.
I agree. But it has nothing to do with what Christ did. The infinite atonement of Christ is not that.
The atonement of Christ does one thing: it satisfies mercy without robbing Justice, it satisfy Justice without robbing Mercy. Without the atonement only Justice can be. Justice completely robs Mercy. It can not be Mercy.
If I kill you I have to pay price. It is Justice. If I am forgiven Justice is robbed.
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  According to the bible humans were thrown out of eden lest they eat from the second tree and become like god.
According to the Bible Adam and Eve became like gods before they were out of the garden of Eden. Tree of knowledge of good and evil gave them an opportunity to become like Gods to know good and evil. There is no way to KNOW evil if you live in paradise.
(09-04-2016 07:09 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Did god overcome his pride? Anger? Jealousy? Envy?
If god cannot, how can he expect you to?
Of course, He did, that is why He became God. That is why He provided a way for us to face Justice and to have Mercy. If Christ didn't atone God Father wouldn't be able to do this. His hands are tied by Laws.

(09-04-2016 11:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  Your faith can not be manipulated by anybody.

The trouble with faith is that it's can be directed towards any number of gods which makes faith a shapeshifting untruth. It's different from person to person and culture to culture. . Hindus have faith in the Lord Shiva and rely on his cosmic influences and guidance to shine on their lives and this brings them happiness.

My sister-in-law is a Canadian Native Indian has faith in her animistic spirits which gives her great contentment. There's as much evidence for her mountain gods as there is for your Jesus flying up to heaven story.

Faith can't be used as evidence . Faith isn't truth.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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09-04-2016, 02:24 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(09-04-2016 01:15 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  The trouble with faith is that it's can be directed towards any number of gods which makes faith a shapeshifting untruth. It's different from person to person and culture to culture. . Hindus have faith in the Lord Shiva and rely on his cosmic influences and guidance to shine on their lives and this brings them happiness.
My sister-in-law is a Canadian Native Indian has faith in her animistic spirits which gives her great contentment. There's as much evidence for her mountain gods as there is for your Jesus flying up to heaven story.
Yes, but people of different religions can believe in the same principles that are true. When they act upon their faith in those true principles they enjoy benefits.
My faith brought me to perfect knowledge that some principles in the Scriptures are true. My faith is growing, I practice(act according to my faith) even more. I learn more.
Your sister-in-law also learns that some of the principle she believes are true. Her faith is growing.
(09-04-2016 01:15 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  .Faith can't be used as evidence . Faith isn't truth.
Faith isn't truth but faith can bring you to the truth when you PRACTICE true principles.
faith is never used as evidence but fruits of the faith can be evidence that what you BELIEVE and PRACTICE is true.

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09-04-2016, 03:57 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
Quote:My faith brought me to perfect knowledge that some principles in the Scriptures are true.

Major league bullshit. Faith doesnt bring knowledge. Never has. Never will.
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09-04-2016, 05:04 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(09-04-2016 02:24 PM)Alla Wrote:  My faith brought me to perfect knowledge that some principles in the Scriptures are true.

No, it didn't.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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09-04-2016, 07:08 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(09-04-2016 03:57 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
Quote:My faith brought me to perfect knowledge that some principles in the Scriptures are true.

Major league bullshit. Faith doesnt bring knowledge. Never has. Never will.
it does when you act upon it.

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09-04-2016, 07:19 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(09-04-2016 07:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(09-04-2016 03:57 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Major league bullshit. Faith doesnt bring knowledge. Never has. Never will.
it does when you act upon it.

You must have a totally different definition of knowledge.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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09-04-2016, 07:57 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(09-04-2016 11:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  Your faith can not be manipulated by anybody.

Suicide bombers.

Is god speaking to them? Are they on a holy mission? Is their faith in the heavenly reward justified?

(09-04-2016 11:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  Let's say you have faith that God's words "forgive those who wrong you brings you happiness and makes of free from the bitterness" is TRUE principle. Then what happens next? You doing all you can to practice this principle. Then you have evidence that it is true. As soon as you forgive you are free from bitterness and you feel happy because of it.

The principles of forgiving those who wrong you are not limited to christianity or even monotheism.

(09-04-2016 11:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  Faith is also the tool that makes me happy and doesn't make me miserable.

And that does not make it real. That makes it comforting.

(09-04-2016 11:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  Faith brings forth actions. Actions bring evidence.

A lot of things bring actions. The voices in a schizophrenic's head bring actions. That doesn't mean they are true.

(09-04-2016 11:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  If I have faith that God's law "Word of Wisdom" is good for me I will act upon my faith. Then I have evidence that following this particular law makes me stronger, I can control my appetites. I am not as weak as I was before.

The fact that a belief motivates you and encourages you does not in anyway make it true.

Faith in the Egyptian gods built pyramids. Does that make Set and Osiris real?
Faith in Zeus and Hades built the Greek Empire.

(09-04-2016 11:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  If man didn't have faith that he can walk on the Moon one day he would never even try to get there.

You are mistaking faith for confidence in one's abilities.

(09-04-2016 11:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  Yes, you are clear but you still didn't show where the scripture says that to pay for the sins of others = to be killed/to die

If you are not familiar with the "christ died for your sins" spiel, then you haven't been paying attention.

(09-04-2016 11:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  I agree. But it has nothing to do with what Christ did. The infinite atonement of Christ is not that.
The atonement of Christ does one thing: it satisfies mercy without robbing Justice, it satisfy Justice without robbing Mercy. Without the atonement only Justice can be. Justice completely robs Mercy. It can not be Mercy.
If I kill you I have to pay price. It is Justice. If I am forgiven Justice is robbed.

What you are saying does not make sense.

One person cannot atone for something someone else did.
It just does not work that way.


Justice, mercy and atonement are different concepts and do not have to be connected. You can have justice with or without mercy and atonement.

Even worse, there are stories in the bible where god acts in unmerciful, unjust ways.

(09-04-2016 11:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  According to the Bible Adam and Eve became like gods before they were out of the garden of Eden. Tree of knowledge of good and evil gave them an opportunity to become like Gods to know good and evil. There is no way to KNOW evil if you live in paradise.

No, according to the bible they were punished for breaking god's rule. They were thrown out in punishment.

(09-04-2016 11:53 AM)Alla Wrote:  Of course, He did, that is why He became God. That is why He provided a way for us to face Justice and to have Mercy. If Christ didn't atone God Father wouldn't be able to do this. His hands are tied by Laws.

In the ten commandments your god specifically says that he is a jealous, angry god.

If god's hands are bound by laws then he is not god. He is simply a more powerful creature than us.

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09-04-2016, 08:32 PM
RE: The Christian delusion
(09-04-2016 10:28 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(09-04-2016 12:18 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I'm anti-stupid, Christianity is just a by-product.
You are anti-Christian.

You know, if you weren't so stupid, you might realize there are better means of deflection. But that would require you to be less stupid, so that's a problem.


(09-04-2016 10:28 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(09-04-2016 12:18 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So you still haven't learned jack-shit, color me not surprised.
Didn't I tell you that I had learned very important thing: GirlyMan is the most wonderful ManlyGirl?

Nope, they are two separate people. But you're so stupid, you never caught on. That would be cute, if I didn't think you had the ability to vote and fuck up other people's lives with said stupidity.

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