The Circumcision Argument.
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27-08-2011, 10:40 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
When it happens to women it's genital mutilation and it's wrong and immoral and horrible. When it happens to men, hey, whatever, no biggie.

I love my foreskin, I'm glad my parents never robbed me.

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27-08-2011, 01:31 PM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(27-08-2011 10:28 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  This actually falls under sovereignty to me. While I do not see circumcision as a very acceptable action I have to admit that if a parent sees it as necessary then the best course of action is to accept that. That which a parent deems necessary will happen whether allowed or not. A parent does have rights over their children especially during the period of time where children are incapable of making their desires known. There is no way to avoid that your parents are going to make some bad decision for you. I mentioned Money because it has been found after this mistake that parents should not have the ability to arbitrarily change their child's gender. This reaches into the same realm of future intellectual property.

So where do we draw the line then Lilith? Circumcision is ok, but changing the sex is not. It looks to me like there are a lot of things which could fit in between these these two examples.
Do we make a complete list of every organ on the body and what parents are permitted to do to them? Would it not be more practical (and moral) to simply legislate that any non essential surgery has to wait until the individual becomes a consenting adult?

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27-08-2011, 01:53 PM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Norseman and Green > You guys know I love you both, but I gotta say; it looks to me like you've jumped in without reading the whole thread. Comparing male and female circumcision, and comparing pretty much any other surgical procedure is just not a fair approach. Each of these issues should be addressed individually, based on their own merits. Once again, don't read this as support for, or condonement of, circumcision. Read it as simply saying, "hey, we gotta stop comparing a tooth being pulled to the complete removal of the lower jaw."

There's an old saying, "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." I agree with that. So the question shouldn't be, "is circumcision an essential surgery", but instead, "are the preventative measures gained by circumcision really worth avoiding the need to cure a later problem."

Norseman raised a point that I am suprised I never considered before (very astute my friend) Is circumcision for religous reasons an infraction on a persons right to freedom of religion? Isn't freedom of religion the right to choose what we believe. I mean shit, circumcision just may be the ultimate indoctrination. Could there be a legal reason to prevent it as a religous rite? BnW?

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27-08-2011, 02:11 PM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(27-08-2011 01:53 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Norseman and Green > You guys know I love you both, but I gotta say; it looks to me like you've jumped in without reading the whole thread.

I won't deny it, I just had two cents to throw in with reckless abandon, hahaha. But I wasn't really accusing anyone of anything, just offering my point of view in a rather crass manner, it wasn't meant to come across as being directed at someone in particular, just a statement in general. And I see your point on the comparison of the two, and I totally agree, I was being unfair, but really circumcision is, in my eyes at least, a form of genital mutilation. Now, of course it is to a lesser degree than female circumcision, but mutilation is mutilation.

Besides, you can be circumsized as an adult so why should parents have the right to decide what they want over their child? Just because he is an infant and can't make his own decisions now doesn't mean he won't look back on it later (assuming the topic ever comes to him, and as a male I can assure any female readers that we spend a good portion of our time thinking about our penises especially going through puberty).

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27-08-2011, 03:15 PM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
I still don't see where anyone yet has addressed the point that an uncircumcised glans penis is much more sensitive than a circumcised one. Instead of lasting only a minute or two with direct stimulation with an uncircumcised glans penis, a circumcised one might last 10-20 minutes. I still think this very well could have been a woman's idea to deal with premature ejaculation.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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27-08-2011, 04:34 PM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Okay Stark, I wont deny being partially guilty there. But you I feel like you are making me repeat myself. Which surgeries do we see as tooth extraction, and which do we see as jaw removal? I read through the old posts and noticed that FSM_scot mentioned nipple removal. Doing some research for a previous answer I read that breast cancer in men is more common than cancer in the foreskin is. Yet no one is doing routine surgeries slicing of young man boobs. Who gets to draw the line? Where, and why?

GirlyMan, I don't know if your taking this seriously, or if your making a "it must have been a woman who invented the necktie" joke.
I think it's time for me to do some sharing.

I have just made an appointment with my physician. the 10th of October we are going to have a much dreaded talk about the state of my penis. The reason for this is that during the last couple of years my foreskin has started to change. At first I thought I was imagining things. I am well past the age where things normally change in that region. I have to face the facts though and it can't be denied anymore. My foreskin is shrinking. Half a year ago it had shrunk so much that it was uncomfortable to pull it back when I had an erection. At present, it has become impossible. From the research I've done it looks as if I might still avoid circumcision, so it's fingers crossed.
My experience so far is that not having a retractable hood is a detriment to my sex life. Both for me and my fiancé. For my part it is a problem if the hood slides to far back. It strangles me, and it hurts like hell. My fiancés on her part says that she feels the increased friction as unpleasant. It causes here to get dry and sore. The practical consequences is that we have been forced to cut back. Also we are dependent on lubricants now. That was never a necessity before.
So no GirlyMan, I do not think that it was a womans idea.

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27-08-2011, 04:53 PM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(27-08-2011 04:34 PM)Norseman Wrote:  GirlyMan, I don't know if your taking this seriously, or if your making a "it must have been a woman who invented the necktie" joke.

Both.

(27-08-2011 04:34 PM)Norseman Wrote:  I think it's time for me to do some sharing. ... The reason for this is that during the last couple of years my foreskin has started to change. ...

Had your foreskin been removed shortly after birth as mine was, you would not have had the opportunity to experience what you are going through now.

(27-08-2011 04:34 PM)Norseman Wrote:  So no GirlyMan, I do not think that it was a womans idea.

Still not sure of that.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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28-08-2011, 12:01 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Hey, Norseman.

It's not a violation of freedom of religion. That's grasping at straws.

As far as who gets to draw the line... doctors. Or health care practitioners. Whoever does the studies that show whether a practice is dangerous, contraindicated or perfectly fine. If it's dangerous, we ban it. If it's contraindicated, it shouldn't be standard procedure but it should be discretionary. If it's perfectly fine, then it should simply be discretionary.

Hey, Lilith.

Cheers.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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28-08-2011, 01:18 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(27-08-2011 03:15 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I still don't see where anyone yet has addressed the point that an uncircumcised glans penis is much more sensitive than a circumcised one. Instead of lasting only a minute or two with direct stimulation with an uncircumcised glans penis, a circumcised one might last 10-20 minutes. I still think this very well could have been a woman's idea to deal with premature ejaculation.

Haha.
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28-08-2011, 01:48 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(27-08-2011 04:34 PM)Norseman Wrote:  Who gets to draw the line? Where, and why?

This is exactly the question i have been asking throughout. Religion aside, we need facts about whether this is a good or bad practice based on unbiased studies.

Sorry to hear about what you're goin through. I was circumcised at the age of 21. Not fun, but I'd never go back. If anything my sex life was improved by it, and the suffering alone made the procedure well worth it for me. Don't worry too much man. The solutions are many, and even if it comes to circumcision, by the sounds of things you will only need a partial, so you won't suffer a big loss in sensitivity. (For those who don't know, a partial is where they remove some but not all the foreskin. It leaves a hood that still covers most of the head when the penis is not erect) Hope it all works out for ya bro.

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