The Circumcision Argument.
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28-08-2011, 01:58 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
You don't get it GirlyMan, I don't want it gone! And even if it has to go I would still be happy that I had one once. And so would my better half.

I am not grasping at straws Ghost. Like I said, in most of the world circumcision is exclusively a religious ritual.
I mentioned in an earlier post that the Norwegian department of health is trying to change the law so that no qualified professional can refuse to perform this surgery. In their justification for this they write that it is "an important part of several religious cultures". And that is not one of several arguments btw. It is the only one they make. In other words it touches very much on the question of freedom of religion.
The department under our previous government btw tried to ban the practice saying it was comparable to FGM, and a violation of the UN convention on the rights of the child.

I want to rip off your superstitions and make passionate sense to you
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28-08-2011, 02:40 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(28-08-2011 01:58 AM)Norseman Wrote:  You don't get it GirlyMan, I don't want it gone! And even if it has to go I would still be happy that I had one once. And so would my better half.

I am not grasping at straws Ghost. Like I said, in most of the world circumcision is exclusively a religious ritual.
I mentioned in an earlier post that the Norwegian department of health is trying to change the law so that no qualified professional can refuse to perform this surgery. In their justification for this they write that it is "an important part of several religious cultures". And that is not one of several arguments btw. It is the only one they make. In other words it touches very much on the question of freedom of religion.
The department under our previous government btw tried to ban the practice saying it was comparable to FGM, and a violation of the UN convention on the rights of the child.

If it was still strictly religious in your country, it wouldn't be allowed. You forget that there are still those who believe in individual freedoms, those people are both theists and atheists.
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28-08-2011, 03:26 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(28-08-2011 02:40 AM)BGrambo Wrote:  If it was still strictly religious in your country, it wouldn't be allowed. You forget that there are still those who believe in individual freedoms, those people are both theists and atheists.

oh really?
Perhaps I should remind you that the U.S. is the only country in the west with a secular constitution? Norway is constitutionally protestant. Even though the majority of the population are unbelievers, we have an awful lot of what Daniel Dennet calls "faith in faith". Religion as a whole is seen as a good thing. Our elected officials go to great pains not to offend any faith based communities. They have to. If you offend the Jews or the Muslims you are automatically branded a Nazi or a racist.

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28-08-2011, 05:15 AM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2011 05:21 AM by BGrambo.)
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(28-08-2011 03:26 AM)Norseman Wrote:  
(28-08-2011 02:40 AM)BGrambo Wrote:  If it was still strictly religious in your country, it wouldn't be allowed. You forget that there are still those who believe in individual freedoms, those people are both theists and atheists.

oh really?
Perhaps I should remind you that the U.S. is the only country in the west with a secular constitution? Norway is constitutionally protestant. Even though the majority of the population are unbelievers, we have an awful lot of what Daniel Dennet calls "faith in faith". Religion as a whole is seen as a good thing. Our elected officials go to great pains not to offend any faith based communities. They have to. If you offend the Jews or the Muslims you are automatically branded a Nazi or a racist.

Like I have stated in a few of my comments, my own procedure was done for non-religious reasons, as it was actually done for medical ones. (I KNOW SO HARD TO BELIEVE OMG LIKE OH EM EF GEE /sarcasm). People feed on drama here in the good ol' USA. The news, the schools, even the restaurants love a good reason to debate and scream their heads off at one another. People whether Theist or Atheist will always throw a punch for people they dont get along with, simply because they feel that the rights of others have been breached. The US government would never condone a procedure to occur publicly and forcefuly for a religious reason. If you recieved a circumcision as a child, against your will, it was either due to A. your parents choice, or B. was medically advised. Doctors aren't hard core bible thumpers, unless you go to a religious hospital (which would then be your parents fault). Doctors are paid for their medical opinions not their religious ones. This is a code that all medical personel follow.If a doctor ever performed a medical procedure for religious reasons against the parents wishes he'd be behind bars for the rest of his life. This procedure is NOT done for relgious reasons on a "normal" basis (Ex: going to a religious hospital vs. non-religious one). When I say this I mean that a hospital doesn't make it a "policy" to perform circumcisions because of their religious views. Do you know how many people are born in hospitals? Do you know how many of those people aren't christians? If this was a standard procedure based on religious reasons only, the people would have stopped it, end of story. Whether it started out religious or not is a totally different story.
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28-08-2011, 07:14 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Ghost I'll have to disagree with you on the line being drawn by the doctors. As I mentioned in the late 70's early 80's sex change boom the children do decide where the line is drawn. If a large enough number of men who were circumcised as children discuss how big of a problem it was, that draws the line. Doctors do pay attention to many health risks but it's the patients who determine the mental health risks of a procedure which are often very important. As are the long term risks which obstetricians, and gynecologists aren't going to notice.

I would like to remind you that medical ethics is in many cases in place because laymen don't want doctors making all the choices. Just because they have a degree and study does not mean they know all of the effects that go on with their patients after a procedure. It also doesn't mean they get the right to force procedures on their patients. Doctors are in a position of power, most patients are very timid with their doctors. This is why it's very important to work at keeping down their ego. Many doctors would be fine without being controlled by a board of ethics, but there are doctors that would do crazy stuff. In fact there are still doctors who breach the code of ethics so you should definitely understand what I'm saying.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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28-08-2011, 07:24 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Oh grow up BG. You know perfectly well that we are not talking about legitimate medical procedures performed on adults when the need arises. We are talking about the ritual genital mutilation of infants.
The Norwegian Medical Association has this to say about circumcision of newborn males:
Quote:The Council for Medical Ethics believes that ritual circumcision of boys is not in line with important medical ethical principles, that there is no medical benefit and should not be paid for by the public.

Their Swedish colleagues have gone even further, advocating a total ban.

I understand that you have not been as exposed to my country's culture as I have to yours so your ignorance is pardonable. Your assertiveness isn't.

In our entire 4.9 million population I have never once heard of any infant being circumcised for any reason except from religion.

I want to rip off your superstitions and make passionate sense to you
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28-08-2011, 08:13 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Hey, Lilith.

You’re regressing a little. I already told you I don’t think doctors should make any unilateral decisions. You’re preaching to the converted on that one.

And patients don’t decide the mental health risks/ramifications. Psychologists do. Through study. If medical practitioners aren't the right ones to carry out medical studies, then I don't know who is. And a bunch of people complaining about their anecdotal experiences does not a comprehensive study make.

Even if doctors are obtuse, they're still the only ones qualified to conduct medical studies and properly conducted, comprehensive medical studies are the only things we should look at when determining where the line is.

Hey, Norseman.

You might not have heard of it, but I know plenty of circumcised at birth Atheists and Catholics. And I don't think it's fair to say we're not talking about adult circumcision. We're talking about circumcision and whether or not it should be banned. If we're talking medically about it, reasons that it is necessary absolutely factor into a discussion about its outright ban.

As far as freedom of religion, rights and freedoms are granted by the state. They are intended to clarify the relationship between the people and the state. Freedom of religion means that the state does not have the right to curtail your right to practice whatever religion you want. Freedom of religion does not apply to how parents raise their children because the parents are simply exercising their right to freely practice religion. Furthermore, the loss of one's foreskin does not in any way impact one's ability to practice religion as they see fit.

The US Constitution's First Amendment Wrote:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms Wrote:Fundamental Freedoms
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom
of the press and other media of communication;
© freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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28-08-2011, 10:20 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
The loss of foreskin can suggest a religious affiliation within certain communities. If most of the people around you are uncircumcised, but the jewish community isn't then being circumcised could say you're jewish. Just because you live somewhere where circumcision is a common practice doesn't mean everyone does. Norseman has already discussed that in his area only religious people circumcise kids. Don't act like he has to be talking about the US.

And as far as who works out ethics why not take a medical ethics class or something I did =p. Yes the board is made up of professionals but the issues they discuss are all the whining regular people's reactions to things. The sex change issue was also resolved by the fact that David Reimer killed himself. Once that happened there was too much public outcry to deny his claim about the issue.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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28-08-2011, 09:45 PM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(28-08-2011 07:24 AM)Norseman Wrote:  Oh grow up BG. You know perfectly well that we are not talking about legitimate medical procedures performed on adults when the need arises. We are talking about the ritual genital mutilation of infants.
The Norwegian Medical Association has this to say about circumcision of newborn males:
Quote:The Council for Medical Ethics believes that ritual circumcision of boys is not in line with important medical ethical principles, that there is no medical benefit and should not be paid for by the public.

Their Swedish colleagues have gone even further, advocating a total ban.

I understand that you have not been as exposed to my country's culture as I have to yours so your ignorance is pardonable. Your assertiveness isn't.

In our entire 4.9 million population I have never once heard of any infant being circumcised for any reason except from religion.

This post is about Circumcision as a whole, no matter the age, community, or country. While I will say this is limited to male circumcision only, I have noted that there are one of two posts about female circumcision which is totally different. So please Norseman, dont attempt to define MY THREAD.
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13-09-2011, 11:17 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
So yeah, I couldn't keep up here. But I saw this today and thought I'd come post it.

A ritual or habit surgery like this doesn't have to be religious, even, to be redundant. I seriously think it brings in a lot of money for doctors and I think this is why doctors won't advice against it and will find reasons to keep it.

There has not been a single reason I've read here that outweighs or justifies this procedure.

The benefit from keeping foreskin, never mind the risks of taking it off, are valuable too. It is such a myth that a foreskin being more sensitive will make a man orgasm quicker. It can be true the opposite, too. One or two personal experiences doesn't make something 'true' for everyone.

And really, if you are counting on your country to have the laws and ethics for you and view them as perfect, you are in a bad place. How will moral and ethics evolve if we let or society think for us? Be a thinking person yourself. That argument that "the US will never allow this or it states that" is so ridiculous. The whole issue is SHOULD it, not DOES it. It is not at all a perfect health care system, it is one of the lower compared to other countries around the world. Obviously government and laws are for circumcision in US, but that is the debate- whether that is okay. In the US circumcision was done solely for religious reasons and now they are trying to back it up for health reasons. Why? For MONEY! The strongest arguments I've heard are 1. it reduces infection. And if I cut my finger off too, then statistics for reduced infections in fingers would be in my favour also since I don't have a finger to get infected. Don't let that wool be pulled over your eyes- or taken from your penis (bad joke!) and 2. It reduces STI- so does absence and protected sex as well as other things. 3. It enhances sex life- MYTH. There are nerve endings that feel good (not necessarily more sensitive, but a whole new good feeling) in foreskins. Men, you are missing out in a whole different feeling.

The arguments against circumcision are sooo so many. 3 in 100 boys will have a complication from circumcision, so it doesn't only prevent some infections, it causes other ones.

From demographics international:
79 million American infant circs
9 million American child or adult circs
13 million Canada, UK, New Zealand & Australia infant circs
27 million rest of world infant circs
44 million child or adult circs other parts of world
315 million Muslim child/adolescent circumcisions

487 million = TOTAL MEN CIRCUMCISED WORLDWIDE (18%)
2 billion 160 million = TOTAL MEN INTACT WORLDWIDE (82%)

2 billion 647 million = Total Men Living Worldwide

Also:

this

this


It IS painful and baby's DO remember it. One may not have a 'visual' memory of it, but it does effect the brain's memory, and a persons brain develops in the first 18 months of life more that all the other years COMBINED. You raise those cortisol levels of stress, and you could be that stressed or anxious in situations for the rest of your life. Brain has a memory, kind of like a lithium battery (you charge to it's full potential the first time)

this

and death, as I've mentioned before

this

this

Foreskin sexuality here.

In muslim and other traditions, circumcision was/is used to prevent masturbation.

One last article I find VERY interesting, please read.


I used to be pro circumcision, but I took down my defensive feelings one time during a debate and tried to remain neutral and I completely swung sides. I'd be interested to hear more thoughts here. Smile
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