The Circumcision Argument.
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15-08-2011, 09:23 PM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
I too, have to chime in on this one. I was circumcised at birth, but I have no idea why. I was adopted at birth, have no idea who my biological parents are/were, or what religion if any. But from what I understand, my birth mother never even saw me, so I'm inclined to believe it was not her choice. My parents (adoptive parents) are in their mid 80's, and they are very "we don't talk about that" with me. They have refused answering every question I have ever had, so I doubt I will ever know any truth.

As far as the circumcision itself, it has never proposed a problem to me, but I have been in awkward situations many times when new lovers have asked me about it. I do kind of resent the fact it was done to me so young, without my consent, especially since I cannot even get an answer to "Why?" .

I believe that if there are medical grounds enough to make it mandatory ( such as infection at birth ), then it should be done. If there are grounds proven that it is necessary for a healthy life, then it should be done to all kids. If there are not such grounds, then it should not be done until the victim is old enough to make his own decision. If only for religious reasons, then it should never be done again!

Of all the bands I've been in, (and there are many) I have always been the only circumcised member. It is one of those things that everyone in the band learns about fast, do to the way groupies talk. I have always felt it was like a label tattooed on me at birth. I didn't need it, didn't want it, but didn't have a choice in the matter. Like any lost limb, it can never be replaced. At least not yet, and at almost 50, I see no point, even if it becomes possible.

I will state that I'm totally against it, unless of medical necessity.

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15-08-2011, 09:31 PM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2011 09:39 PM by BGrambo.)
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
I see that some of you are calling it Mutilation. Which is a misuse of the word. Marking it as such forces those who oppose you to submit to your idealogy based on the simple term that you defined it in...mutilation. Please keep your replies simple, educated, and without forceful words.

We do not mark things unjustly here, so keep it civilized.

BTW Obviously some of your do not know the correct definition of the word mutilation, and are continuously using it out of place.

Mutilation: to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts.

And to those of you who call it "abuse", by law it is defined as a medical prodcedure. As an adolescent a newborn has no rights in the saying of the matter. Therefore it is not considered abuse.

We do not make up laws, slander such things, or yell at those who obey such. Stop misusing words, it only makes you look like a bat crazy lunatic.

(15-08-2011 09:06 PM)Redshirt Wrote:  I have 2 sons. The oldest was circumcised at birth without our permission (at a military hospital). I was deployed so I had no say in it and my wife was not consulted. It seemed to be standard procedure.
Our youngest son initially did not have a circumcision, but after problems surfaced he had to get it too. We were set against him not getting one unless necessary. Wouldn't you know it, it was necessary later.

It's always hard for a parent oversea to keep a watchful eye on their child. In some areas it's considered basic care to circumsize your child while in others it is not. Sorry to hear about the wrongful doing of idiot doctors amd surgeons.
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15-08-2011, 09:52 PM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Ok, so there's problems people encounter when they are circumcised, and the are problems people encounted when they're not.
What makes sense to me, is to determine:
a) Frequency of problems occuring on both sides (toques vs helmets)
b) The severity of these problems
c) The ages at which all these problems most commonly occur
d) Make an honest asessment of whether circumcision is an overall healthy practice or not, and at what age it is best employed if it is (accounting for psycological trauma that may be incurred using the most current understanding of cognition at a given age)

Now as for the, "I decide what I eat, I should get to decide whether I am circumcised", that shit just ain't gonna fly. You didn't decide what you ate when you were an infant, your parents did. If they made poor choices (and one look at our kids today tells us that a LOT of parents are making poor choices in their diets) should we be pushing legislation about what you can feed your kid? Sure, just as soon as we determine what EXACT diet is the healthiest, best tasting, most life enriching diet. Until then, it's arbitrary, and your parents will choose your meals.


On a personal note; I was circumcised at the age of 21. I still have nightmares, and now I'm 35. And those nighmares are of the excrutiating suffering I endured BEFORE my surgery. Sure, surgery and recovery sucked, but I can handle that. Plus, sex is better, hygene is easier to maintain, and it is far more comfortable. The trauma I had was due to having a foreskin. And that trauma has stuck with me for 14 years. If I'd been circumcised as an infant, none of that would be there. So, I am a statistic that would support infant circumcision. Why haven't I seen an unbiased gathering of more statistics to determine whether the risk of my type of situation is worth it or not? (Before anyone starts pointing me towards some pro or anti-circumsion sites, I mean unbiased gathering of legitimate, controlled statistics.)

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15-08-2011, 11:23 PM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2011 11:30 PM by LadyJane.)
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
There are so many good points made that I won't regurgitate, but if I may say, I am always leery of when statistics or 'proof' is shown to back something up medically that is a huge profit for someone. Even in Canada, circumcision is not covered, so someone's making money. Maybe if I cut off my breasts I won't get breast cancer, or maybe if I cut off one toe it won't get a wart.

I think I've said it here before, but I can't help but make this personal, but I know babies who have died directly from this procedure. Not even worth it to risk one life in my opinion, it's already too late. I hate when people say "oh, he just sleeps after, he didn't feel it, he recovered quickly." Sleep is a coping mechanism for pain, and usually a last resort Sad. Yup, child abuse! How traumatizing.
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16-08-2011, 12:00 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Hey, LJ.

Quote:...circumcision is not covered, so someone's making money.

Hmm. Interesting point.

Quote:...I know babies who have died directly from this procedure.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

If it's a straight up personal thing you don't wanna share, cool, but could you drop a little science on how a child might die from a circumcision?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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16-08-2011, 03:18 AM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2011 03:24 AM by BGrambo.)
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(15-08-2011 11:23 PM)LadyJane Wrote:  There are so many good points made that I won't regurgitate, but if I may say, I am always leery of when statistics or 'proof' is shown to back something up medically that is a huge profit for someone. Even in Canada, circumcision is not covered, so someone's making money. Maybe if I cut off my breasts I won't get breast cancer, or maybe if I cut off one toe it won't get a wart.

I think I've said it here before, but I can't help but make this personal, but I know babies who have died directly from this procedure. Not even worth it to risk one life in my opinion, it's already too late. I hate when people say "oh, he just sleeps after, he didn't feel it, he recovered quickly." Sleep is a coping mechanism for pain, and usually a last resort Sad. Yup, child abuse! How traumatizing.

I can with 99.9% certainty deny your claim that you know children who have died directly from this procedure. Like I also stated before, don't you dare (this goes for anyone) claim this is child abuse. Misuse of the terminology.
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16-08-2011, 03:33 AM
 
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(16-08-2011 03:18 AM)BGrambo Wrote:  ...Like I also stated before, don't you dare (this goes for anyone) claim this is child abuse. Misuse of the terminology.

sounds like a challenge Tongue or a threat?
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16-08-2011, 08:33 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(16-08-2011 03:18 AM)BGrambo Wrote:  I can with 99.9% certainty deny your claim that you know children who have died directly from this procedure.

I just googled "circumcision death" and got 6,250,000 hits. Here's one site that came up on the first page.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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16-08-2011, 09:39 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
This bears mentioning.

First, the site linked is an anti-circumcision site. Most definitely biased. Second, have a look at the references:

Quote:References:

(1) Baker RL. Newborn male circumcision: needless and dangerous. Sexual Medicine Today. 1979;3(11):35-36.

(2) Bollinger, Dan. Lost Boys: An Estimate of U.S. Circumcision-Related Infant Deaths. Thymos: Journal of Boyhood Studies. 2010;4(1):78-90.

(3) AAP Policy Statement: Prevention of Choking Among Children. Feb 10, 2010. Published online at: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cg...009-2862v1

(4) Rimell FL, Thome A Jr, Stool S, et al. Characteristics of objects that cause choking in children. JAMA. 1995;274(22):1763–1766

(5) Harris CS, Baker SP, Smith GA, Harris RM. Childhood asphyxiation by food: a national analysis and overview. JAMA. 1984;251(17): 2231–2235

(6) Policy Statement: Prevention of Choking Among Children. Committee on Injury, Violence, and Poison Prevention. Pediatrics. 2010; DOI: 10.1542/peds.2009-2862

Two of the six references are actually references to studies on circumcision, and the first is from 1979. A little outdated as far as I'm concerned. The second even states in the title that it's an estimate.

I'm not saying this research is invalid, nor am I advocating for or against infant circumcision. What I am saying is that linking to a biased site as proof of your point doesn't cut it. (no pun intended)

Finding good, unbiased facts on the internet is not as simple as googling. It's not easy to find good info you can trust, especially when you are using a search engine that prioritizes the way google does.

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16-08-2011, 10:53 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Gotta add a footnote here...

Cufflink has attempted to make some good arguments. If I seem like I'm trying to shoot them down, that's not my intent. Keep your ideas and opinions coming. That's what discussion is all about.

On the other hand, I am not so impressed with some comments from BGrambo. To me it's not only unproductive, but down right rediculous to join a forum, then assume you can tell people what is done here, and what they can and cannot say.

My response to things like this:
Quote:We do not mark things unjustly here, so keep it civilized.
and this:
Quote:Like I also stated before, don't you dare (this goes for anyone) claim this is child abuse
is firstly, you are not the sole determining factor in what is and isn't civillized, and secondly, don't you dare tell people what they are allowed to say. Feel free to argue, debate, refute, whatever you like. But here everyone gets to say what's on their minds.

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