The Circumcision Argument.
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25-08-2011, 03:11 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Ok Ghost, I'm dropping our previous discussion, it seams we are as close to an agreement as we are going to get.

In answer to your latest writings, WHY do you see female circumcision as something different from male circumcision?
What sources do you have when you say that in the females it is dangerous, painful and torturous, while in the male it is not?








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25-08-2011, 08:16 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Hey, Norseman.

The argument in the first video is, you don't have to because there's other solutions. That's nowhere near a compelling enough argument to institute a ban. It's compelling enough to ensure it's not made mandatory, but not for a ban.

1996 has a good point, but I still don't see it as a human rights issue. And in 15 years since that report, they haven't convinced legislators that it is either. Also, it's a bad report. "The foreskin is torn from the penis," speaks volumes about the reporter's bias. The woman at the end had a great point though. This is an emotionally charged issue. I can respect that. But I won't have my position dictated by someone's emotional reaction to something. I require facts.

Female circumcision is a different procedure on a different organ with a different end result. How can anyone consider them the same?

The nature of and the ramifications of Type I, Type II and Type III female circumcision are well documented and readily available to everyone.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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25-08-2011, 08:50 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
One thing in this debate needs to be put to rest....male circumcision and female circumcision are nowhere near the same procedure. You cannot compare them simply because they share the term "circumcision". They are completely different in terms of what physically happens to the body and what is removed. Sure we can discuss female circumcision, but stop treating it as though it is somehow the same as male circumcision. It's not.

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25-08-2011, 10:59 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(25-08-2011 08:50 AM)Stark Raving Wrote:  One thing in this debate needs to be put to rest....male circumcision and female circumcision are nowhere near the same procedure. You cannot compare them simply because they share the term "circumcision". They are completely different in terms of what physically happens to the body and what is removed. Sure we can discuss female circumcision, but stop treating it as though it is somehow the same as male circumcision. It's not.

You're right, SR. There is a huge difference, and I didn't mean to come off as equating the two or minimizing the difference. That's why there's no controversy in the west (to my knowledge) about banning FGM, whereas there's considerable controversy about male circumcision. For the record, I also acknowledge that in certain cases, male circumcision is a valid and beneficial medical procedure.

That said, the difference between FGM and male circumcision seems to me more quantitative than qualitative. Both procedures involve altering the normal genitalia a person was born with, usually without the person's consent. Both can have a negative impact on physical sensation during sex. In the case of FGM, the impact is clear and devastating; with male circumcision the results are not as clear, but there is evidence for a negative impact, which is supported by the physiology. And both seem to me a violation of rights--without exception in the case of FGM, and when performed non-consensually without valid medical reasons in the male case.

But they're not at all the same. Point taken.

In an attempt at lightening the mood:

Foreskin's Lament: A Memoir

Haven't read this yet, but it's on my list. From the title, I suspect it touches on our topic, at least in passing.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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25-08-2011, 11:23 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.



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25-08-2011, 11:58 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Right, when I said about the difference of male and female circumcision I was all wrong, now you all have came to the same conclusion... Good for you, in time you will learn that Filox is always right. Smile

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25-08-2011, 12:04 PM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
(25-08-2011 11:58 AM)Filox Wrote:  in time you will learn that Filox is always right. Smile

Curse you All-Knowing Filox and your....all.....knowing..ness...... ?

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26-08-2011, 01:39 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Yeah, joke all you want, but when the shit hits the fan, The-All-Kowing-Filox will come to the rescue... But you are still young, there is plenty of time for you to realize your errors.

Smile

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27-08-2011, 10:12 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
Let's get a new angle on this then:
If Jewish or Muslim parents circumcise their sons for religious purposes, is this a violation of the boys rights to freedom of religion?
And when you contemplate your answers please have in mind that, as far as I know, the U.S. is the only place where young boys are circumcised for non-religious purposes.

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27-08-2011, 10:28 AM
RE: The Circumcision Argument.
This actually falls under sovereignty to me. While I do not see circumcision as a very acceptable action I have to admit that if a parent sees it as necessary then the best course of action is to accept that. That which a parent deems necessary will happen whether allowed or not. A parent does have rights over their children especially during the period of time where children are incapable of making their desires known. There is no way to avoid that your parents are going to make some bad decision for you. I mentioned Money because it has been found after this mistake that parents should not have the ability to arbitrarily change their child's gender. This reaches into the same realm of future intellectual property.

When a child becomes aware they can determine whether something was acceptable or not, but many things that are done can't be undone. There are children who dislike that they lost their 6th finger. Normalization is a huge concern of parents and must be met with caution. If a parent sees something out of the ordinary with their child they will seek an answer to fix it. We can't simply ban "normalizing" children because there are many dangerous illegal alternatives to a safe legal answer. I feel that it should be seen as completely unnecessary and that doctors should stop promoting the benefits of circumcision without actually having credulous proof, but if a parent wants to circumcise their child it will happen.

My concern on circumcision is that within the US it is considered completely normative. When a huge surgical alteration even one with a high success rate is considered a regular factor of childbirth something is wrong with a societies priorities in child rearing. especially since circumcised babies are in more risk of childhood troubles than uncircumcised ones. I would have no issue with circumcision if people had to request it, but cannot accept it being considered the initial answer.

It's an important factor in looking at freedom that there are people who will want things that you can't even start to stomach, and that prohibiting their desires will only lead to them finding alternative answers. To make a society which is most free we must accept that sometimes things might seem distasteful, but should focus more on preventing harm than preventing decisions.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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