The Cold War
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20-05-2013, 05:49 AM (This post was last modified: 20-05-2013 05:53 AM by FSM_scot.)
RE: The Cold War
(19-05-2013 06:53 PM)I and I Wrote:  Was it paranoia for the soviets to think the u.s. was attempting to control the world?

It was a two way street both sides thought that of the other, something there was some truth in since they 'fought' indirectly via proxy wars throughout the world.
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20-05-2013, 10:10 AM
The Cold War
In what way were the wars "proxy". The U.S. for example really did. Invade Vietnam. This is called empire building. Russia didnt send its troops in anywhere near as many places nor did it build as many military bases in other people's countries. In what way was the Soviet Union fighting the U.S. examples please.
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20-05-2013, 10:20 AM
RE: The Cold War
They were "proxy" because it wasn't US v USSR... you dumb shit.
Proxy wars are wars where two major powers fight or support fighters of opposite sides in another country.

ie: The USSR backed Viet Cong v the US backed South Vietnam and US troops.

The US were not officially fighting USSR troops...
BUT the USSR supported the Cong who were...

Seriously, your biggest problem is that you're dumb I&I.

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20-05-2013, 11:02 AM
RE: The Cold War
(20-05-2013 10:10 AM)I and I Wrote:  In what way were the wars "proxy". The U.S. for example really did. Invade Vietnam. This is called empire building. Russia didnt send its troops in anywhere near as many places nor did it build as many military bases in other people's countries. In what way was the Soviet Union fighting the U.S. examples please.


Well, there was the Greek Civil War, wherein the Soviets gave aid to pro-communist rebel forces in fighting the west backed government of the time, which makes it describable as a proxy war between the West and Soviets.

The Korean War can be considered a proxy war of sorts, while intervention was mandated by the UN, the United States seized to opportunity to try to prevent the dominoes from falling any more than they had done so already in Asia. If I remember correctly, the Soviets supplied the North Koreans from the beginning of the invasion all the way to the Stalemate at the 38th parallel.

The Soviet war in Afghanistan was a proxy war directly against the Soviets. The West supplied the Mujahideen with weapons, intelligence and other aid and used them to fight the Soviet occupation forces.

The Soviets supplied the Viet Cong in Vietnam against the pro-West South Vietnamese Government and their US lead allies during the war.

Conflicts between Israel and the Arab nations around it have been called proxy wars also, with the US proxy being Israel while the Soviets backed the Arab States e.g. Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan Syria etc.

Cuba. The US backed Batista against the Revolution, and supported the attempts made by the Cuban exiles to depose of Castro, whist the USSR supported Castro and sent aid after he (Castro) was in power.

Soviet placement of IRBMs in Cuba could be considered an act preparatory to a proxy war, using Cuba as a strategic proxy nation. The same can of course be said about the US placing strike-capable IRBMs throughout Europe. Not entirely a proxy war, but they would be considered steps toward it one, kind of like some sort of "proxy armament".

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20-05-2013, 06:29 PM (This post was last modified: 20-05-2013 06:33 PM by I and I.)
RE: The Cold War
(20-05-2013 11:02 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(20-05-2013 10:10 AM)I and I Wrote:  In what way were the wars "proxy". The U.S. for example really did. Invade Vietnam. This is called empire building. Russia didnt send its troops in anywhere near as many places nor did it build as many military bases in other people's countries. In what way was the Soviet Union fighting the U.S. examples please.


Well, there was the Greek Civil War, wherein the Soviets gave aid to pro-communist rebel forces in fighting the west backed government of the time, which makes it describable as a proxy war between the West and Soviets.

The Korean War can be considered a proxy war of sorts, while intervention was mandated by the UN, the United States seized to opportunity to try to prevent the dominoes from falling any more than they had done so already in Asia. If I remember correctly, the Soviets supplied the North Koreans from the beginning of the invasion all the way to the Stalemate at the 38th parallel.

The Soviet war in Afghanistan was a proxy war directly against the Soviets. The West supplied the Mujahideen with weapons, intelligence and other aid and used them to fight the Soviet occupation forces.

The Soviets supplied the Viet Cong in Vietnam against the pro-West South Vietnamese Government and their US lead allies during the war.

Conflicts between Israel and the Arab nations around it have been called proxy wars also, with the US proxy being Israel while the Soviets backed the Arab States e.g. Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan Syria etc.

Cuba. The US backed Batista against the Revolution, and supported the attempts made by the Cuban exiles to depose of Castro, whist the USSR supported Castro and sent aid after he (Castro) was in power.

Soviet placement of IRBMs in Cuba could be considered an act preparatory to a proxy war, using Cuba as a strategic proxy nation. The same can of course be said about the US placing strike-capable IRBMs throughout Europe. Not entirely a proxy war, but they would be considered steps toward it one, kind of like some sort of "proxy armament".

"backing" doing business with certain countries isn't a "war"

Invading Vietnam and killing 3 million vietnamese, that is a war. The Soviets defending against U.S. backed alqaeda (wink wink mujahadeen)

Doing business with Cuba is not an attack on the U.S......(here comes the turkey missle crisis topic)

Aiding a nationalist movement to free itself from colonialism (vietnam and Korea) is not a war.

How many countries did Russia invade? And the thread dies with that question.

Not only invade, but prop up and physically put dictators in power. The Russians supported leaders and movements that already existed, like Ho Chi Minh, these weren't creations of Russian attempts to control the world, the nationalist movements that the Soviets helped were popular before the Soviets started helping them. Mao, and Ho Chi Minh for example were already popular long before the Soviets started helping them. And really, did the Soviets need to help asians figure out that living under imperialism wasn't fun?
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20-05-2013, 06:35 PM
RE: The Cold War
What missiles are you referring to btw? The ones the U.S. put in Turkey aimed at Rusia? Or the ones that Russia responded with and put in Cuba?

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20-05-2013, 06:46 PM
RE: The Cold War
(20-05-2013 06:29 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(20-05-2013 11:02 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Well, there was the Greek Civil War, wherein the Soviets gave aid to pro-communist rebel forces in fighting the west backed government of the time, which makes it describable as a proxy war between the West and Soviets.

The Korean War can be considered a proxy war of sorts, while intervention was mandated by the UN, the United States seized to opportunity to try to prevent the dominoes from falling any more than they had done so already in Asia. If I remember correctly, the Soviets supplied the North Koreans from the beginning of the invasion all the way to the Stalemate at the 38th parallel.

The Soviet war in Afghanistan was a proxy war directly against the Soviets. The West supplied the Mujahideen with weapons, intelligence and other aid and used them to fight the Soviet occupation forces.

The Soviets supplied the Viet Cong in Vietnam against the pro-West South Vietnamese Government and their US lead allies during the war.

Conflicts between Israel and the Arab nations around it have been called proxy wars also, with the US proxy being Israel while the Soviets backed the Arab States e.g. Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan Syria etc.

Cuba. The US backed Batista against the Revolution, and supported the attempts made by the Cuban exiles to depose of Castro, whist the USSR supported Castro and sent aid after he (Castro) was in power.

Soviet placement of IRBMs in Cuba could be considered an act preparatory to a proxy war, using Cuba as a strategic proxy nation. The same can of course be said about the US placing strike-capable IRBMs throughout Europe. Not entirely a proxy war, but they would be considered steps toward it one, kind of like some sort of "proxy armament".

"backing" doing business with certain countries isn't a "war"

Invading Vietnam and killing 3 million vietnamese, that is a war. The Soviets defending against U.S. backed alqaeda (wink wink mujahadeen)

Doing business with Cuba is not an attack on the U.S......(here comes the turkey missle crisis topic)

Aiding a nationalist movement to free itself from colonialism (vietnam and Korea) is not a war.

How many countries did Russia invade? And the thread dies with that question.

Not only invade, but prop up and physically put dictators in power. The Russians supported leaders and movements that already existed, like Ho Chi Minh, these weren't creations of Russian attempts to control the world, the nationalist movements that the Soviets helped were popular before the Soviets started helping them. Mao, and Ho Chi Minh for example were already popular long before the Soviets started helping them. And really, did the Soviets need to help asians figure out that living under imperialism wasn't fun?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupations

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20-05-2013, 07:22 PM
RE: The Cold War
(20-05-2013 06:46 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(20-05-2013 06:29 PM)I and I Wrote:  "backing" doing business with certain countries isn't a "war"

Invading Vietnam and killing 3 million vietnamese, that is a war. The Soviets defending against U.S. backed alqaeda (wink wink mujahadeen)

Doing business with Cuba is not an attack on the U.S......(here comes the turkey missle crisis topic)

Aiding a nationalist movement to free itself from colonialism (vietnam and Korea) is not a war.

How many countries did Russia invade? And the thread dies with that question.

Not only invade, but prop up and physically put dictators in power. The Russians supported leaders and movements that already existed, like Ho Chi Minh, these weren't creations of Russian attempts to control the world, the nationalist movements that the Soviets helped were popular before the Soviets started helping them. Mao, and Ho Chi Minh for example were already popular long before the Soviets started helping them. And really, did the Soviets need to help asians figure out that living under imperialism wasn't fun?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_occupations

You have Russia confused with the USSR. Yugoslavia and most of the countries mentioned there had their own popular communist uprisings and became part of the USSR. Russian troops didn't have to go in there to install someone into power. Communist parties in Eastern europe were large and very popular long before they became part of the Soviet Union.

The Soviet war in afghanistan was an attempt by Russia to stop Afghanistan from becoming a crazy muslim ruled dictatorship.
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21-05-2013, 12:38 PM
RE: The Cold War
Oh my gosh I and I you are so far from reality on occasion. There is a museum in Budapest called the TerrorHaza which chronicles how the Stalinists took over a torture prison from the fascists (not a good museum because it ignores the Hungarian embrace of fascism but that is not relevant).

Yugoslavia did have a significant communist presence and thanks to Tito was allowed to remain quite independent of the Stalinist regimes that were installed in most of eastern europe. Regimes that were resisted by much of the populace.

There may have been a significant communist presence in eastern europe before the end of WW2. To suggest that the USSR or Russia (whatever you want to call it) did not force puppet regimes in eastern europe is so false as to be insulting.
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21-05-2013, 06:52 PM
The Cold War
(21-05-2013 12:38 PM)JAH Wrote:  Oh my gosh I and I you are so far from reality on occasion. There is a museum in Budapest called the TerrorHaza which chronicles how the Stalinists took over a torture prison from the fascists (not a good museum because it ignores the Hungarian embrace of fascism but that is not relevant).

Yugoslavia did have a significant communist presence and thanks to Tito was allowed to remain quite independent of the Stalinist regimes that were installed in most of eastern europe. Regimes that were resisted by much of the populace.

There may have been a significant communist presence in eastern europe before the end of WW2. To suggest that the USSR or Russia (whatever you want to call it) did not force puppet regimes in eastern europe is so false as to be insulting.

Are you against nations imposing puppet regimes??? If you are then there is another big empire that is in full business doing that today.

So the U.S. has had to use force in forcing people to submit to their many puppet dictators and force capitalism on people. Communism has not spread in that manner nearly as much. China and Russia didnt have to force communism on south east Asia, and they didnt have to force communism on Latin America. Communism was so popular in Korea that the west had to use their troops on a massive scale to force capitalism on people, then of course the economic sanctions to punish people for choosing communism as is the case with Cuba as well.

How was the Cold War a war at all when only one side was massively conducting empire building and one side was not?

Stalin didnt have to force Tito on Yugoslavians nor did he have to on any country after ww2. Before ww2 members of the Soviet Union were members because of former ties to czarist Russia. What soviet state had to have its communist leader forced on them after ww2?
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