The Concept of a Postmortem Preservation of Identity is Inconceivable.
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04-11-2012, 11:52 AM
RE: The Concept of a Postmortem Preservation of Identity is Inconceivable.
(04-11-2012 11:51 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 11:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is also the discussion in Neuro-science, (old now ?), that each time a memory is recalled, it's basically rewritten, and at least slightly altered.

Sounds like flash memory.
Exactly. And THAT is coded in a different place than long term memory. Yes

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04-11-2012, 11:53 AM
RE: The Concept of a Postmortem Preservation of Identity is Inconceivable.
(04-11-2012 10:16 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-11-2012 06:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  BTW, Girly, here's a link to a recent SciFri blurb. Looks like they're closing in on the molecular method of memory formation.
http://sciencefriday.com/playlist/#play/segment/8929

Even more interesting is why not just define personal identity as the individual's DNA? It at least allows for a partial postmortem preservation of identity through procreation. Apart from the problem of how DNA expresses itself as "personhood", a second difficulty with this concept is that 90% of the DNA in my body isn't mine at all, but rather belongs to a bunch of little critters just along for the ride. And yet a third objection is that DNA strands can change over time with mutation or environmental damage.

I couldn't find a whole lot on this interpretation but I did find this interesting paper from a guy at Queen's College, Canada. He identified the first 2 difficulties, not sure why he didn't bring up the third.

A New Look At Personal Identity


Also not sure why he calls it a "new" look, guess it's cause he's considering DNA, but he ends up in the same place as the existentialists.

EDIT: WTF?!? If I follow the Google link I get to see the whole paper but if I link directly to it I have to subscribe? WTF?!?
Here's the Google page, first link.


Fuck, now none of them work. Ah fuck it, you'll just have to take my word for it.
DNA does carry our experiences, so that certainly is not a vehicle for identity. It's a hardware/firmware specification; the added software that makes identity ain't there.

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04-11-2012, 12:04 PM
RE: The Concept of a Postmortem Preservation of Identity is Inconceivable.
(04-11-2012 11:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 10:16 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Even more interesting is why not just define personal identity as the individual's DNA? It at least allows for a partial postmortem preservation of identity through procreation. Apart from the problem of how DNA expresses itself as "personhood", a second difficulty with this concept is that 90% of the DNA in my body isn't mine at all, but rather belongs to a bunch of little critters just along for the ride. And yet a third objection is that DNA strands can change over time with mutation or environmental damage.

I couldn't find a whole lot on this interpretation but I did find this interesting paper from a guy at Queen's College, Canada. He identified the first 2 difficulties, not sure why he didn't bring up the third.

A New Look At Personal Identity


Also not sure why he calls it a "new" look, guess it's cause he's considering DNA, but he ends up in the same place as the existentialists.

EDIT: WTF?!? If I follow the Google link I get to see the whole paper but if I link directly to it I have to subscribe? WTF?!?
Here's the Google page, first link.


Fuck, now none of them work. Ah fuck it, you'll just have to take my word for it.
DNA does carry our experiences, so that certainly is not a vehicle for identity. It's a hardware/firmware specification; the added software that makes identity ain't there.

Identity is a byproduct. What there is, is sensory input referenced rapidly to memory. That produces (perception of) "identity".

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-11-2012, 12:13 PM
RE: The Concept of a Postmortem Preservation of Identity is Inconceivable.
(04-11-2012 11:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  DNA does carry our experiences, so that certainly is not a vehicle for identity. It's a hardware/firmware specification; the added software that makes identity ain't there.

Does not scan. "DNA does not carry our experiences, so that certainly is not a vehicle for identity." There, now it scans.

(04-11-2012 12:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 11:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  DNA does carry our experiences, so that certainly is not a vehicle for identity. It's a hardware/firmware specification; the added software that makes identity ain't there.

Identity is a byproduct. What there is, is sensory input referenced rapidly to memory. That produces (perception of) "identity".

Think that's right, which is precisely why I find a postmortem preservation of identity inconceivable.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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04-11-2012, 01:02 PM
RE: The Concept of a Postmortem Preservation of Identity is Inconceivable.
(04-11-2012 12:13 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 11:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  DNA does carry our experiences, so that certainly is not a vehicle for identity. It's a hardware/firmware specification; the added software that makes identity ain't there.

Does not scan. "DNA does not carry our experiences, so that certainly is not a vehicle for identity." There, now it scans.

(04-11-2012 12:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Identity is a byproduct. What there is, is sensory input referenced rapidly to memory. That produces (perception of) "identity".

Think that's right, which is precisely why I find a postmortem preservation of identity inconceivable.
Um, Girly, listen to the Science Friday thing. They are saying DNA is changed, and encodes (some) memory, I think. I will listen again. Let us know if that's what you think they are saying. They're saying DNA in brain cells is altered.

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04-11-2012, 01:17 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2012 01:26 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Concept of a Postmortem Preservation of Identity is Inconceivable.
(04-11-2012 01:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 12:13 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Does not scan. "DNA does not carry our experiences, so that certainly is not a vehicle for identity." There, now it scans.


Think that's right, which is precisely why I find a postmortem preservation of identity inconceivable.
Um, Girly, listen to the Science Friday thing. They are saying DNA is changed, and encodes (some) memory, I think. I will listen again. Let us know if that's what you think they are saying. They're saying DNA in brain cells is altered.

Okay, I'll give it a listen just for you big fella as soon as the Redskins get blown out again, but that's not what I got from reading a synopsis of the study they were referencing:
Penn team finds key molecules involved in forming long-term memories
. Looks to me like UPenn team are identifying proteins and enzymes to manipulate gene expression on memory formation. Interesting and potentially quite useful, but not much different than what they're trying to do with SIRT1 activation to control metabolic processes and cure my diabetes to my read.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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04-11-2012, 01:30 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2012 01:47 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Concept of a Postmortem Preservation of Identity is Inconceivable.
(04-11-2012 01:17 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 01:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Um, Girly, listen to the Science Friday thing. They are saying DNA is changed, and encodes (some) memory, I think. I will listen again. Let us know if that's what you think they are saying. They're saying DNA in brain cells is altered.

Okay, I'll give it a listen just for you big fella as soon as the Redskins get blown out again, but that's not what I got from reading a synopsis of the study they were referencing:
Penn team finds key molecules involved in forming long-term memories
. Looks to me like UPenn team are identifying proteins and enzymes to manipulate gene expression on memory formation. Interesting and potentially quite useful, but not much different than what they're trying to do with SIRT1 activation to control metabolic processes and cure my diabetes to my read.
(from your article) ...
"Finally, the researchers screened mice for molecules that act
"downstream" of Nr4a and could be part of the signaling cascade by which
those nuclear receptors help create long-term memories. They found two
genes, Fosl2 and Bdnf1, that appeared to be downstream targets of Nr4a
genes and also increased in expression following treatment with an HDAC
inhibitor."

They call it "epigenetic". I think they're saying the proteins surrounding the genes are changed.

see what you think...

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04-11-2012, 01:56 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2012 02:00 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Concept of a Postmortem Preservation of Identity is Inconceivable.
(04-11-2012 01:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  They call it "epigenetic". I think they're saying the proteins surrounding the genes are changed.

see what you think...

But epigenetics ain't about changing the DNA, it's about changing its genetic expression. It's not about changing DNA, it's about manipulating it, and I think it will become pervasive in medicine in the next decade or 2.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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04-11-2012, 01:58 PM
RE: The Concept of a Postmortem Preservation of Identity is Inconceivable.
(04-11-2012 01:56 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 01:30 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  They call it "epigenetic". I think they're saying the proteins surrounding the genes are changed.

see what you think...

But epigenetics ain't about changing the DNA, it's about changing its genetic expression. It's not about changing DNA, it's about manipulating it, and I think it will become pervasive in the next decade or 2.
got it, but the proteins CHANGE the way, permanently, the way the genes CAN be expressed, and are expressed.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-11-2012, 02:23 PM
RE: The Concept of a Postmortem Preservation of Identity is Inconceivable.
(04-11-2012 01:58 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-11-2012 01:56 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  But epigenetics ain't about changing the DNA, it's about changing its genetic expression. It's not about changing DNA, it's about manipulating it, and I think it will become pervasive in the next decade or 2.
got it, but the proteins CHANGE the way, permanently, the way the genes CAN be expressed, and are expressed.

As just some goober programmer, I clearly ain't qualified to comment on that, but it sure as shit sounds provocative to me. Think by implication it means I could take a single dose or course of some script and be free of the diabetes forever. Sounds provocative to me. ... Don't mean I ain't hoping for it. Big Grin

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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