The Consolations of Atheism
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13-06-2014, 01:07 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(12-06-2014 11:21 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-06-2014 11:00 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I have yet to encounter a god not of the invented variety. I don't suppose you have?
Your question is somewhat loaded as I suspect you know the answer.

Knowing the answer doesn't mean the question is loaded, moron.


Quote: Yes, I believe God is Love. Love is not invented.

Your idiotic word salad doesn't mean anything at all.

And your mythical god-figure is a monster, and wouldn't know what love is it it bent him over and fucked him in the ass.


(12-06-2014 11:25 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-06-2014 10:58 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Do you mean to say that I portray belief in god poorly or that god is not good himself? Perhaps neither?
It is late for me. If I may speak directly, I am saying the god you are imagining is not good. No one could believe (trust) in such a god.

Yeah -- the Xtard mythical god-figure. The one you, as an xtard, claim. It's not "love", and it certainly isn't good.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


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13-06-2014, 01:12 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 01:05 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 12:41 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Really, asshole? And what are you calling a proper "understanding" of this term, moron?
An absolute moral good. A single moral Truth that all men must eventually submit to.

Meaningless word salad.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


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13-06-2014, 01:17 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 12:07 AM)childeye Wrote:  I am a Christian. By that, I mean that I see every moral/immoral choice as either sacrificing myself for others or sacrificing others for myself. In saying that, I am believing that the Christ reported in the Gospel is the True image of God because he sacrifices himself for others. When I use the term God I am referring to an absolute which is self evident in that it is the ultimate good for all men from the best objective point of view. In other words if everyone were willing to sacrifice themselves for others all would be well, while if everyone would sacrifice others for themselves, this would be bad for everyone. That is self evident to me. Therefore I trust in the Christ. Does that answer your question?

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Regale the storm to those who (6) would thump the parrot with the armband. Corner the market on vestiges of the apparent closure but seek not the evidential circumstance. Therein you can find indignant mountains of pigs and apples. Descend eloquently as you debate the ceiling of your warning fulcrum. Vacate the corncob profusely and and don’t dote on the pancreas.

Next up, control your wood. Never use your racquet with a backhand shot, if the dog is serving from the net. Have at the cat with your watch on the fore. Aft! Smarties (12)! Rome wasn’t kvetched in an autumn nightie. (42) See yourself for the turntable on the escalator. Really peruse the garage spider definitely again again with brown. Now we have an apparent congestion, so be it here. Just a moment is not a pod of beef for the ink well nor can it be (4) said that Karen was there in the millpond.

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And remember, never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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13-06-2014, 01:19 AM (This post was last modified: 13-06-2014 01:24 AM by childeye.)
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 01:07 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Knowing the answer doesn't mean the question is loaded, moron.
Whoa, take it easy. Notice I said somewhat loaded. The guy understood what I meant.



Quote:Your idiotic word salad doesn't mean anything at all.
Maybe not to you. But hey it's okay. I confess I don't get what you don't get.

Quote:And your mythical god-figure is a monster, and wouldn't know what love is it it bent him over and fucked him in the ass.
I'm not sure, but I don't think Love has an ass.




Quote:Yeah -- the Xtard mythical god-figure. The one you, as an xtard, claim. It's not "love", and it certainly isn't good.
That makes no sense. I say I believe God is Love and you say "It's not Love". How exactly would you be able to say what I believe??
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13-06-2014, 01:19 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 12:07 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-06-2014 11:39 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I was referring to immortal living being possessing qualities of omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. More or less the traditional monotheistic god worshiped in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

The question isn't intended to be loaded. I sincerely want to know. Have you encountered a god along those lines?
I'm sorry, your question is phrased so that I would answer yes to some of it and no to some of it. I am a Christian. By that, I mean that I see every moral/immoral choice as either sacrificing myself for others or sacrificing others for myself. In saying that, I am believing that the Christ reported in the Gospel is the True image of God because he sacrifices himself for others. When I use the term God I am referring to an absolute which is self evident in that it is the ultimate good for all men from the best objective point of view. In other words if everyone were willing to sacrifice themselves for others all would be well, while if everyone would sacrifice others for themselves, this would be bad for everyone. That is self evident to me. Therefore I trust in the Christ. Does that answer your question?

Yes and no. You call yourself a Christian and you referred to Christ as reported in the New Testament, but when you refer to "god" you don't refer to Jesus Christ. Do you believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ? I meant the original question more literally, as in, have you had any real communication with a god yourself?

I hold no objections to you thinking or living this way, but I don't agree and here is why.

1. It seems to me that anyone can possess a world view focused on serving others. The worship of Jesus Christ is optional. They are not mutually exclusive.

2. It is not self evident to me that sacrificing for others is "the ultimate good", mostly because I don't grant others the authority to determine what is the best point of view for me. The best you can present to me is your subjective opinion.

3. I take the view that self sacrifice is actually an expression of selfishness in the positive sense. Professor Richard Dawkins in his book "The Selfish Gene" outlines this concept very well. Relationships between human beings can always be expressed as transactions. For example, I provide a loved one with affection, support, and company in exchange for all of those same things in return. Neither of us is capable of fulfilling this need alone, therefore what appears to be a selfless expression is actually self centered. Imagine a relationship with no return affection, support, or company. Would you endlessly contribute taking nothing in return? I don't think even the most empathetic and charitable among us would bother for long. I take the view that this is not a negative concept and that understanding how selfishness is important doesn't diminish the fulfillment that comes from the process. Our symbiosis with one another is actually a tremendous strength to our species. I don't believe that someone who sacrificed everything he/she had to others would be in a position to sacrifice for very long. If you can't help yourself, who can you help?

4. I take the view that living a life of self sacrifice and/or continually sapping the strength of others are not the only options. There is a great deal of breathing room for self fulfillment without harming others. The happiness I take from a game of chess played with myself has no effect on the happiness of those around me. Couple this with a healthy sense of community and human solidarity and you've got the average civilized person. In practice I think most people focus on themselves and their loved ones, while behaving charitably to others under convenient or readily available circumstances. When I give blood I don't lose a pint but someone else gains one. I don't do it just for the sake of some ultimate sense of morality. I do it to selfishly enjoy the help I gave to someone somewhere who badly needed blood. I enjoy how that makes me feel about myself as a person. More practically, the golden rule applies. When the time comes and I need blood I hope others will have already done the same on my behalf. Even in my moment of altruism, it's still about me. None of us can escape this.

If what you say is correct and every human being acting for the betterment of others would be the best of all worlds to live in, couldn't the same be accomplished by every human taking responsibility for his own happiness and experience? Does it really make all that much of a difference how we get there?

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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13-06-2014, 01:25 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
Taqiyya Mockingbird,

I tried to send you a PM, but your box is full. Could you clear it out a bit so I could send it along?

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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13-06-2014, 01:25 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 01:02 AM)childeye Wrote:  Respectfully, it is not an outlook. The Spirit of Christ is real even as you have just acknowledged. It is a fact. It is not an ideal, it is the reality of morality. Hey that rhymes.

You are talking out your ass. Just because you make up a bunch of meaningless bullshit and assert it in an internet forum doesn't make it true. Fuck the hell off.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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13-06-2014, 01:34 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 01:19 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 01:07 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Knowing the answer doesn't mean the question is loaded, moron.
Whoa, take it easy.

No.



Quote: Notice I said somewhat loaded. The guy understood what I meant.

That's like being somewhat fucking pregnant. Quit mealy-mouthing.

Quote:
Quote:Your idiotic word salad doesn't mean anything at all.
Maybe not to you. But hey it's okay. I confess I don't get what you don't get.

No, not just to me. It's meaningless.

Quote:
Quote:And your mythical god-figure is a monster, and wouldn't know what love is it it bent him over and fucked him in the ass.
I'm not sure, but I don't think Love has an ass.

Then you're doing it wrong.

Your "Gawd is Luv" bullshit doesn't mean a fucking thing. You might as well throw words at your refrigerator and copy down what you see.

Quote:
Quote:Yeah -- the Xtard mythical god-figure. The one you, as an xtard, claim. It's not "love", and it certainly isn't good.
That makes no sense. I say I believe God is Love and you say "It's not Love". How exactly would you be able to say what I believe??

You claim to be an xtard, moron. The fact that you make up your own bullshit about what xtianity is supposedly to you is your own fucking problem.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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13-06-2014, 02:05 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 01:19 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  1. It seems to me that anyone can possess a world view focused on serving others. The worship of Jesus Christ is optional. They are not mutually exclusive.

That is somewhat beside the point. The Christ is the Word of God made flesh according to scripture. Therefore if the phrase "world view" is meant to be applied to the Word of God (the moral Truth), they are one and the same.
Quote:2. It is not self evident to me that sacrificing for others is "the ultimate good", mostly because I don't grant others the authority to determine what is the best point of view for me. The best you can present to me is your subjective opinion.
Not true. To love others as you would want to be loved contains both subjective and objective connotations. Empathy exists and that is self evident.

Quote:3. I take the view that self sacrifice is actually an expression of selfishness in the positive sense. Professor Richard Dawkins in his book "The Selfish Gene" outlines this concept very well. Relationships between human beings can always be expressed as transactions. For example, I provide a loved one with affection, support, and company in exchange for all of those same things in return. Neither of us is capable of fulfilling this need alone, therefore what appears to be a selfless expression is actually self centered. Imagine a relationship with no return affection, support, or company. Would you endlessly contribute taking nothing in return? I don't think even the most empathetic and charitable among us would bother for long. I take the view that this is not a negative concept and that understanding how selfishness is important doesn't diminish the fulfillment that comes from the process. Our symbiosis with one another is actually a tremendous strength to our species. I don't believe that someone who sacrificed everything he/she had to others would be in a position to sacrifice for very long. If you can't help yourself, who can you help?
Respectfully, there are semantics at play in such a reasoning. I can be selfish when serving others serves me and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact it is quite logical.
Quote:4. I take the view that living a life of self sacrifice and/or continually sapping the strength of others are not the only options. There is a great deal of breathing room for self fulfillment without harming others. The happiness I take from a game of chess played with myself has no effect on the happiness of those around me. Couple this with a healthy sense of community and human solidarity and you've got the average civilized person. In practice I think most people focus on themselves and their loved ones, while behaving charitably to others under convenient or readily available circumstances. When I give blood I don't lose a pint but someone else gains one. I don't do it just for the sake of some ultimate sense of morality. I do it to selfishly enjoy the help I gave to someone somewhere who badly needed blood. I enjoy how that makes me feel about myself as a person. More practically, the golden rule applies. When the time comes and I need blood I hope others will have already done the same on my behalf. Even in my moment of altruism, it's still about me. None of us can escape this.

Respectfully, you seem to have said you don't give blood for some ultimate sense of morality, and then claim you enjoy how that makes you feel. That appears contrary. Without empathy you wouldn't care at all whether someone needs blood.
I see nothing wrong with everything else you say here. Again we are dealing with some semantics. There is selfish in a good way and selfish in a bad way. Of course altruism is about you but in a good way, but only because of empathy.

Quote:If what you say is correct and every human being acting for the betterment of others would be the best of all worlds to live in, couldn't the same be accomplished by every human taking responsibility for his own happiness and experience?

Not exactly, since the carnal mind counts happiness in a carnal understanding of the term.
Quote: Does it really make all that much of a difference how we get there?

How we get there is unique to every individual. I'm just saying there is a common Spirit we will be serving in doing so.
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13-06-2014, 02:10 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 02:05 AM)childeye Wrote:  How we get there is unique to every individual. I'm just saying there is a common Spirit we will be serving in doing so.

The Spirit of Goodness and Truth? Rolleyes

Why do you need all this bloody mumbo jumbo?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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