The Consolations of Atheism
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13-06-2014, 02:20 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 02:10 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 02:05 AM)childeye Wrote:  How we get there is unique to every individual. I'm just saying there is a common Spirit we will be serving in doing so.

The Spirit of Goodness and Truth? Rolleyes

Why do you need all this bloody mumbo jumbo?
We all need to be loved and be ruled by Truth. And it's not mumbo jumbo.
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13-06-2014, 02:25 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 02:20 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 02:10 AM)morondog Wrote:  The Spirit of Goodness and Truth? Rolleyes

Why do you need all this bloody mumbo jumbo?
We all need to be loved and be ruled by Truth. And it's not mumbo jumbo.

Heh. I am loved and ruled by my dick. And it is mumbo jumbo Smile See, I can do assertions too.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-06-2014, 11:07 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 02:25 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 02:20 AM)childeye Wrote:  We all need to be loved and be ruled by Truth. And it's not mumbo jumbo.

Heh. I am loved and ruled by my dick. And it is mumbo jumbo Smile See, I can do assertions too.
Ahh, the carnal reasoning.
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13-06-2014, 11:15 AM
The Consolations of Atheism
(12-06-2014 11:21 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-06-2014 11:00 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I have yet to encounter a god not of the invented variety. I don't suppose you have?
Your question is somewhat loaded as I suspect you know the answer. Yes, I believe God is Love. Love is not invented.

[Image: re6ejy2y.jpg]

So God by your definition is a chemical process in the brain?

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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13-06-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 02:05 AM)childeye Wrote:  That is somewhat beside the point. The Christ is the Word of God made flesh according to scripture. Therefore if the phrase "world view" is meant to be applied to the Word of God (the moral Truth), they are one and the same.

Let me word it this way then, if a life of selflessness is within everybody's grasp, why multiply unnecessary entities by way of Christianity? If the purpose is to live morally why not just get on with it?

Again I find myself confused by your terms. How is Jesus Christ, the man/god, also "the word of god". I am unsure if you mean to say he is the bible, or the sum of all words related to Christianity. Either way, how can he be both a living entity and also words? It is really confusing for me when we don't use accepted standard definitions.

(13-06-2014 02:05 AM)childeye Wrote:  Respectfully, there are semantics at play in such a reasoning. I can be selfish when serving others serves me and there is nothing wrong with that. In fact it is quite logical.

It may seem like a small difference, but I personally consider it worlds apart from the Christian teaching of loving your neighbor as yourself and doing him related services. The point is that human beings never act altruistically without reference to how it will benefit he/she who acts. We cannot and do not act without reference to ourselves. It is not in our nature.

You may be entitled to ask, why does the distinction matter to me. I think it is very telling of Christianity that people are given impossible commandments. "Love thy neighbor as thyself" No one can do this. It places the follower of Christ in the torturous position of always being inadequate and able to be condemned for disobedience, most of the time by themselves in the privacy of their own minds. Understanding that these kinds of commandments are not in our nature might well make us wonder why our supposed creator fashioned us in this flawed condition only to command us to be free of it. In my opinion, he should have taken care to invent a different species.

(13-06-2014 02:05 AM)childeye Wrote:  Respectfully, you seem to have said you don't give blood for some ultimate sense of morality, and then claim you enjoy how that makes you feel. That appears contrary.


That is because I am not explaining myself very well. Tongue Do I give blood because I consider it "the right thing" or "the moral choice" and would I give blood for that sake, with no hope of reciprocation? No. I do it because it improves my personal private view of myself as well as my reputation. Above all, I do it because one day I might need blood myself and someone will have to have given it in advance of that emergency. If I knew for certain that no one would ever do this, neither would I. It would be a waste of my time.

(13-06-2014 02:05 AM)childeye Wrote:  Without empathy you wouldn't care at all whether someone needs blood.

Although I can have empathy for others, that doesn't guarantee that I will come to their aid. In truth, I care very little for the majority of people in the world when it comes to what I actually do. Sure, I privately hope everybody lives peacefully and happily around the world, just like everybody else. As we speak there are likely many people in need who I am not even aware of let alone aiding. Empathy is a wonderful tool for human solidarity, but not particularly useful on a large scale other than to torture oneself with all the pain and loss in the world. It only goes as far as self interest. Even those who give service in foreign nations all around the world do so because they hope others would do the same for them if the tsunami or hurricane came to their homeland.

(13-06-2014 02:05 AM)childeye Wrote:  There is selfish in a good way and selfish in a bad way. Of course altruism is about you but in a good way, but only because of empathy.

I am interested to note that you make the distinction at all. Most of the Christians I have talked to consider all forms of selfishness contrary to the selfless lifestyle mandated by Christianity. Although I agree with your decision to exclude only negative forms of selfishness, I can't help but wonder, by what standard or authority do you tell the difference and/or measure whether it is enough selflessness or not? For example, I am eating lunch just now. I could be feeding my lunch to someone downtown who doesn't have one if I wanted to. There a plenty of opportunities like that every day but I doubt people seriously consider doing them very often. Who is to judge whether sitting and eating my own lunch, in full empathetic knowledge of starving homeless downtown, is anything close to living a selfless life?

(13-06-2014 02:05 AM)childeye Wrote:  Not exactly, since the carnal mind counts happiness in a carnal understanding of the term.

In your view, what do "carnal mind" or "carnal understanding" mean?

(13-06-2014 02:05 AM)childeye Wrote:  How we get there is unique to every individual. I'm just saying there is a common Spirit we will be serving in doing so.

I think I understand the main difference between our view points here. You seem to think, and feel free to correct me if not, that we all serve an absolute truth or moral standard. My view point is that we serve ourselves and each other as an added bonus. We are not servants, but agents engaged in self interest.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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13-06-2014, 11:42 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(12-06-2014 06:19 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  So you would say that there is an appeal to atheism in the sense that it offers you consolation as you put it.

Would that be fair to say?

The reason I am asking this is because I have been told by some that a reality without God in it is something that one must face with a determination and resolve. As if it is indeed bleak, and depressing, but nontheless true and thus one has to simply "deal with it"....

So it seems here that your view is actually something I do not see all that often. That your beliefs offer you consolation.

That is interesting.

Jeremy,

Atheism is not a belief system. It is a result of taking an honest look at the evidence. It is a side effect of having a rational metaphysics and epistemology. It is the result of following reason. Reason is not a consolation, it is the prize.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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13-06-2014, 12:33 PM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(12-06-2014 11:21 PM)childeye Wrote:  Yes, I believe God is Love. Love is not invented.
(13-06-2014 12:07 AM)childeye Wrote:  I am a Christian. By that, I mean that I see every moral/immoral choice as either sacrificing myself for others or sacrificing others for myself.
I'm sorry, but this sounds like you are as much a Christian as I am an elephant. Drinking Beverage

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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13-06-2014, 02:33 PM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 11:42 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(12-06-2014 06:19 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  So you would say that there is an appeal to atheism in the sense that it offers you consolation as you put it.

Would that be fair to say?

The reason I am asking this is because I have been told by some that a reality without God in it is something that one must face with a determination and resolve. As if it is indeed bleak, and depressing, but nontheless true and thus one has to simply "deal with it"....

So it seems here that your view is actually something I do not see all that often. That your beliefs offer you consolation.

That is interesting.

Jeremy,

Atheism is not a belief system.

I never claimed it was.

I have claimed that atheists, like theists, do indeed have beliefs. These beliefs constitute a person's worldview. Atheists have worldviews and theists have worldviews. A worldview is a particular set of beliefs or assumptions about reality.


(13-06-2014 11:42 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  It is a result of taking an honest look at the evidence. It is a side effect of having a rational metaphysics and epistemology. It is the result of following reason. Reason is not a consolation, it is the prize.

All of that sounds good but I could say the same thing about Christianity.
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13-06-2014, 04:07 PM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 02:33 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 11:42 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Jeremy,

Atheism is not a belief system.

I never claimed it was.

I have claimed that atheists, like theists, do indeed have beliefs. These beliefs constitute a person's worldview. Atheists have worldviews and theists have worldviews. A worldview is a particular set of beliefs or assumptions about reality.


(13-06-2014 11:42 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  It is a result of taking an honest look at the evidence. It is a side effect of having a rational metaphysics and epistemology. It is the result of following reason. Reason is not a consolation, it is the prize.

All of that sounds good but I could say the same thing about Christianity.

NO you can't because the concept of the Christian god contradicts The axioms existence, consciousness, identity and the primacy of existence. It contradicts every principle of a rational metaphysics and epistemology. You can not arrive at the concept of the Christian God by objective reason. You can't inform the concept of the Christian god by looking outward at reality but only by looking inward to the imagination and I hope you recognize the fundamental difference between reality and imagination.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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13-06-2014, 04:32 PM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 02:33 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 11:42 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Jeremy,

Atheism is not a belief system.

I never claimed it was.

I have claimed that atheists, like theists, do indeed have beliefs. These beliefs constitute a person's worldview. Atheists have worldviews and theists have worldviews. A worldview is a particular set of beliefs or assumptions about reality.


(13-06-2014 11:42 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  It is a result of taking an honest look at the evidence. It is a side effect of having a rational metaphysics and epistemology. It is the result of following reason. Reason is not a consolation, it is the prize.

All of that sounds good but I could say the same thing about Christianity.

I have a world view, yes, but religion doesn't occupy any space in that view. I was raised entirely without any religion and very little contact with modern society until I was about 10 years old. Religion and god wasn't even a word I knew existed nor a thing that was. God and theism is not just a foreign language to me but not a language at all. I would liken it to a sound that doesn't exist. I have a hard time even calling myself an atheist since being an atheist denotes a lack of an existing god or evidence for it. I'm way beyond that description. I don't even need a label.

Yet here I am, happy, fulfilled, thrilled with life, not afraid of death, often generous to a fault, well adjusted and easy going. Most theists are very eager to convert me. Why? Because they somehow think that my happiness is misguided and perhaps I would be happier believing in their god. And what to they hand me? Sin. I have to admit to sin so I can be saved. It reminds me of a parent who forces their child to admit they are a horrible, deceitful, sinful person for stealing something from the store to avoid punishment, when in fact the child did nothing wrong in the first place and is completely innocent. It's a sadistic, twisted, psychologically damaging relationship. I want nothing to do with this imaginary, man made thing.

And yes, religion is a creaky, man-made, 2000 year old invention that is way past it's shelf life.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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