The Consolations of Atheism
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13-06-2014, 07:21 PM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 06:59 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 06:12 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Yes. I know many of those.

Damnit DLJ I had a plan and you ruined it by saying that.Dodgy Just blew my shit man.

Sorry Blush

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13-06-2014, 07:24 PM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 06:29 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 06:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Buddhist atheists also. Thumbsup

Good point, well made.

That's a much better way of saying it.

Thumbsup

I know a shitload of Jewish atheists too. Thumbsup

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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13-06-2014, 11:54 PM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 04:37 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 04:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  the concept of the Christian god contradicts The axioms existence, consciousness, identity and the primacy of existence.

This is non-sensical.


(13-06-2014 04:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  It contradicts every principle of a rational metaphysics and epistemology.

Bare assertion. Needs to be supported.


(13-06-2014 04:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You can not arrive at the concept of the Christian God by objective reason.

Bare assertion. Needs to be supported.


(13-06-2014 04:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You can't inform the concept of the Christian god by looking outward at reality but only by looking inward to the imagination

Bare assertion. Needs to be supported.

(13-06-2014 04:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  and I hope you recognize the fundamental difference between reality and imagination.

I do.

That's fair. I'll be glad to support it.

Let's start at the beginning, with existence. existence is the widest possible concept which subsumes everything That exists. The first thing to say about it is that it exists. It exists independently from consciousness as the object of consciousness not the subject. It is an axiomatic concept. It can not be reduced to any antecedent concepts. Existence does not need to be proven or explained. It is what we use to prove and explain. It is perceptually self evident.

Grasping the fact that existence exists implies a second axiomatic concept: Consciousness. It also is a broad concept subsuming all forms of consciousness. Consciousness is the faculty that perceives that which exists, therefor it presupposes existence. A consciousness with nothing to be conscious of is a contradiction in terms. Consciousness is directly observable by introspection. It is perceptually self evident.

These two axioms imply a third: Identity. To exist is to be something. Consciousness is perception of some thing separate from consciousness. Consciousness is consciousness of some object Every object or entity is itself and nothing else. It is what it is. Every entity exists with a finite set of attributes. It possesses a specific nature. A is A. This too is perceptually self evident.

A corollary to these three axioms is the primacy of existence. To be conscious is to be conscious of some thing. There is a necessary relationship between the subject of consciousness and its object. The relationship is uni-directional and contextually fixed. Consciousness conforms to its objects, its objects don't conform to it. Things are what they are. They possess finite and fixed identities. They exist as absolutes independently from the subject of consciousness. The objects of consciousness hold metaphysical primacy over the subject of consciousness. A is A regardless of anyone's wishes, likes, dislikes, hopes, faith, needs or tantrums. Wishing won't make it so.

The primacy of existence is also an axiomatic concept. It is implicit in any knowledge claim. It too is perceptually self evident. You can test it anytime and anywhere. Anyone can. The opposite of this is the primacy of consciousness over existence. This is the idea that the objects of consciousness conform to the subject of consciousness. Things are not what they are independent of consciousness. A is non A. It makes no difference what consciousness has primacy over existence if any consciousness does then consciousness holds metaphysical primacy over existence which means A is not A. Wishing makes it so.

This relationship between the subject of consciousness and its objects is where we get the concepts "objective" and "subjective". Things which exists independently from consciousness are objective. They are facts of reality. Things which are not independent from the subject of consciousness are subjective. They don't exist in reality but only in the mind. Therefor to gain knowledge of reality one must look outward at reality not inward to the subject of consciousness.

For anything to be objective it must be independent of consciousness. Existence must hold primacy. If consciousness holds primacy then there are no objects of consciousness and therefor no such thing as objectivity.

The Christian claim that a consciousness created everything in existence and maintains everything that exists and can if it wishes change anything in existence through an act of conscious will affirms the primacy of consciousness over existence.
It directly contradicts the primacy of the objects of consciousness over the subject of consciousness which the concept "objective" presupposes. The concept "objective moral values" presupposes the primacy of existence.

To claim that the Christian God exists as a fact of reality is to say that A is A and at the same time A is not A.

I realize I am just giving you the bare bones summary here so if you would like me to expand on any of this I will be glad to.

Here is the summary of the argument from the primacy of existence:

1. If existence holds metaphysical primacy over consciousness then the Christian God can not exist since it is a direct contradiction of the primacy of existence.

2. Existence holds metaphysical primacy over consciousness.

3. Therefor the Christian God does not exist.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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14-06-2014, 01:27 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 06:34 PM)Leo Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 05:54 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  If a person thinks that Gautama Buddha was God/a god then yes. They could be a Theistic Buddhist.
Buddhists don't see the Buddha as a god. What the hell you are talking about?

There is different schools of thought in Buddhism. From Zen to traditional ideas and some other believes worship him as a Deity. He is considered the highest being in existence to them, I think this is the common type of Buddhism throughout southeast asia.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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14-06-2014, 07:08 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(12-06-2014 07:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  
(12-06-2014 06:37 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  I'm in the camp of being happier as an atheist than I was as a theist, and not because I'm "free to sin". Rather, I'm free to investigate and to learn honestly. I'm free to take the world on face value, as it is rather than as I would want it to be. I'm free to take on issues not thinking that some god will help or that I'm the tool of a god. I can make a difference, a human difference in what I do. I am able to act with integrity and not have that diminished by a belief that my integrity is some kind of gift from a god.

I am responsible and autonomous. My future is determined by my own decisions as much as anything outside of my control. I'm free to love without thinking that love is flowing from an external source. Rather I know that my goodness or my evil are determined by my own character.

My world is not diminished by a lack of belief in gods. Rather, it is expanded by knowledge about reality and by my personal autonomy.


.. or rather: It is an observation that the gods proposed by others are messed up.
Any invented god or gods are messed up. It's like an amoeba trying to invent the universe.

Pro tip: They are all invented.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-06-2014, 08:05 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
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Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-06-2014, 09:00 AM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2014 09:52 AM by childeye.)
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(14-06-2014 07:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-06-2014 07:05 PM)childeye Wrote:  Any invented god or gods are messed up. It's like an amoeba trying to invent the universe.

Pro tip: They are all invented.
Hi Chas. Love, the moral Spirit is not invented. That is as plain to see as 1+1=2. and there is a right and a wrong in how we treat others. That's just the way it is. Whatever you have against it is the delusion.
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14-06-2014, 09:13 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(14-06-2014 09:00 AM)childeye Wrote:  
(14-06-2014 07:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  Pro tip: They are all invented.
Hi Chas. Love, the moral Spirit is not invented. That is as plain to see as 1+1=2. and there is a right and a wrong in how we treat others. That's just the way it is. Whatever you have you against it is the delusion.

Still have not learned anything about neuroscience I see. Love is a chemical in the brain not the creator of all existence. You stance is circular and illogical and always has been. But we have both argued this to death and I know how this carousel works. I try to pin you down to anything and you just revert back to your assertions and pretend the conversation never happened. Repeat ad nauseum.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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14-06-2014, 09:17 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 04:37 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 04:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  the concept of the Christian god contradicts The axioms existence, consciousness, identity and the primacy of existence.

This is non-sensical.


(13-06-2014 04:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  It contradicts every principle of a rational metaphysics and epistemology.

Bare assertion. Needs to be supported.


(13-06-2014 04:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You can not arrive at the concept of the Christian God by objective reason.

Bare assertion. Needs to be supported.


(13-06-2014 04:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  You can't inform the concept of the Christian god by looking outward at reality but only by looking inward to the imagination

Bare assertion. Needs to be supported.

(13-06-2014 04:07 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  and I hope you recognize the fundamental difference between reality and imagination.

I do.

LOL the LAST words that should be coming out of YOUR fucking mouth are "Bare assertion. Needs to be supported."


Fucking idiot.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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14-06-2014, 09:20 AM
RE: The Consolations of Atheism
(13-06-2014 05:06 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(13-06-2014 04:49 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Ergo, there is no such thing as an atheistic worldview.

Good. I' glad we've got that one sorted.

Thumbsup

Wrong.

An atheistic worldview is a worldview that does not have as a principle constituent, belief in God or gods.

Any worldview that does not have as a constituent the belief in gods or God can be said to be "atheistic".

a godless worldview, an atheistic worldview, a godless paradigm, an atheistic paradigm are all phrases that can be used interchangeably.

Only in your fucking strawman factory.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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