The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
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07-02-2017, 12:47 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 12:45 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 12:00 PM)Naielis Wrote:  I completely disagree. If the physical world operated differently, that wouldn't make 2+2=4. Mathematical truth is necessary truth. It cannot be otherwise. If it were otherwise, we would exist in an incoherent reality.

2+2=11!

Easy there big fella, you'll hurt yourself if you're not careful. Big Grin

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07-02-2017, 12:48 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 12:00 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 11:56 AM)Chas Wrote:  And I do not.

Mathematics is a way to describe aspects of reality. If reality were different, then the math would different.

Physical reality is what we have. The rest is commentary. And woo.

I completely disagree. If the physical world operated differently, that wouldn't make 2+2=4. Mathematical truth is necessary truth. It cannot be otherwise. If it were otherwise, we would exist in an incoherent reality.

No, some mathematics describe our reality, other mathematics do not.
Your 'necessary truth' is clearly wrong.

Whose formulation of geometry describes reality? Euclid, Riemann, or Lobachevsky?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-02-2017, 12:50 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 12:03 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  And I think it's a means of manipulating reality.

No - that's accounting you're thinking of. Dodgy

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-02-2017, 12:56 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 12:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 12:03 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  And I think it's a means of manipulating reality.

No - that's accounting you're thinking of. Dodgy




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07-02-2017, 01:25 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
At work.

(07-02-2017 12:38 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 12:04 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  I'm truly sorry, Naielis, but it's abundantly clear through your repeated fact-free assertions that you really don't know what you're talking about. And when presented with rational, cogent arguments that run counter to your biases, you dismiss them.

That's not the hallmark of intelligent discourse.

Over/out.

I've come to a similar conclusion but mine includes the word troll.

Continuing with the conversation seems pointless, Naielis is either not grasping the meaning of the repeated counters and dismantling of his baseless assertions or is trolling, could there be any other explanation? I suppose the rest of us could be in the wrong and he is the only one who is "right"... nah, that ain't it. Drinking Beverage

I must admit that i am pretty sure it's the former.

I have been almost precisely where Naielis is (Admittedly the conversation between my much younger self and the senior was a subtly different kind of topic) but yes, I was not quite 'getting' the subtler contexts within the conversation at the time.

And that was 'Face to face' not through the filtering medium of the internet.

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07-02-2017, 01:33 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
At work.

Also, Naielis?

If you keep throwing the "But how can you trust your senses" thing at people seemingly randomly into a conversation when the discussion is moving onwards?

It is both frustrating since it's de-railing the flow as well as Facepalm inducing frustration since it enevitably loops back to the response of;

"I know 'reality' in exactly the same way you do."

Unless, of course, one of us is not really an human.... Or perhaps one of us is not real?

Consider
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07-02-2017, 01:45 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 10:58 AM)Naielis Wrote:  Pragmatism unnecessarily redefines truth by a proposition's usefulness.

No, I think pragmatism merely puts the search for truth off to one side, and concentrates on application rather than theory. (At least, that's how I do it -- If I can't use a particular truth for something, I just don't bother with it.)

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
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07-02-2017, 01:46 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 01:33 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

Also, Naielis?

If you keep throwing the "But how can you trust your senses" thing at people seemingly randomly into a conversation when the discussion is moving onwards?

It is both frustrating since it's de-railing the flow as well as Facepalm inducing frustration since it enevitably loops back to the response of;

"I know 'reality' in exactly the same way you do."

Unless, of course, one of us is not really an human.... Or perhaps one of us is not real?

Consider

I don't think it derails the conversation. I think it's a necessary question. You have to be able to justify the reliability of your senses if your entire worldview relies upon that reliability.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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07-02-2017, 01:47 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
I am confused by this. People are debating a 17 year old who really should be learning the basics in school.

And just to stay on topic.

Here's a passion fruit.

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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07-02-2017, 01:52 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 01:47 PM)Banjo Wrote:  I am confused by this. People are debating a 17 year old who really should be learning the basics in school.

I don't mind interacting with young people about such things, but they - and I - have to be open to evidence.

So far, I see zero evidence that Naielis is interested in, well, evidence.
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