The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
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07-02-2017, 02:27 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:24 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 02:19 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Already seen it.

Watch it again and again until you understand.

I am serious. As a professional musician I have had to study music I did not understand or even like. However with time, I got both.

I am not judging you. You are young and there is much to learn. However, the cosmological argument is long out of date. Notice it does not even attempt to show which god it represents?

One may as well talk about Zeus' daddy issues.

This thread is a total waste of time.

You are judging me. You're noticing my age and extrapolating from it. You assume that I lack understanding on this issue instead of considering the possibility that you are wrong. It's condescending and patronizing.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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07-02-2017, 02:30 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:25 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 02:23 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I do it all the time. I think we all do.

I agree, but do you think there is a way in which we can justify our senses? And if not, do you think we can justify our lack of justification. In other words, does every belief require justification? It seems this is relevant because this trust in our senses is foundational to almost every worldview.

In what sense (you see what I did there right Big Grin ) do you want me to justify my senses? I have manipulated them in more ways than years you've been alive. I can vouch for their unreliability if that's what you're after.

#sigh
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07-02-2017, 02:32 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:30 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 02:25 PM)Naielis Wrote:  I agree, but do you think there is a way in which we can justify our senses? And if not, do you think we can justify our lack of justification. In other words, does every belief require justification? It seems this is relevant because this trust in our senses is foundational to almost every worldview.

In what sense (you see what I did there right Big Grin ) do you want me to justify my senses? I have manipulated them in more ways than years you've been alive. I can vouch for their unreliability if that's what you're after.

What I'm after is a reason to suspect that our senses ever actually do what we suppose they do. Also, nice pun.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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07-02-2017, 02:35 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:16 PM)Naielis Wrote:  I understand the difference between the validity of an argument and the truth of conclusion. But I'm not convinced that the premises are silly.

Which is irrelevant.

The question is not "do you think these premises are silly?". The question is "can you establish that these premises are actually true?".

You cannot.

The arguments are therefore discarded.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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07-02-2017, 02:37 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:35 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 02:16 PM)Naielis Wrote:  I understand the difference between the validity of an argument and the truth of conclusion. But I'm not convinced that the premises are silly.

Which is irrelevant.

The question is not "do you think these premises are silly?". The question is "can you establish that these premises are actually true?".

You cannot.

The arguments are therefore discarded.

I think I can establish that the PSR is true. Would you agree that if the PSR is true, then there would have to be a necessary being as the first cause?

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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07-02-2017, 02:38 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
At work.

Naielis? You've just conflated 'Senses' with 'Belief'.
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07-02-2017, 02:38 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:38 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

Naielis? You've just conflated 'Senses' with 'Belief'.

When?

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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07-02-2017, 02:39 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:11 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Are you saying contingency and necessity don't apply to the real world?

You have not demonstrated them to do so, so no. I see no reason to think that they should.

Hence my repetition of the phrase "bare assertion".

(07-02-2017 02:11 PM)Naielis Wrote:  What about truths? Is it not necessary that some things be true?

This question is incoherent. You have not provided a definition of "necessary" that allows for an answer to be given.

(07-02-2017 02:11 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Then you say the solipsistic questions are purely semantic. Could you elaborate?

I have done so repeatedly in previous posts.

(07-02-2017 02:11 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Is there an answer to the questions? Are you saying they're incoherent or malformed?

The latter. All questions of solipsism and its related positions ultimate come down to playing semantic games, most commonly with the words "exists", "is", "really", and "know" or "prove".

All of this, however, is ultimately off-topic, as we are dealing with the cosmological arguments specifically in this thread. I am not against continuing this discussion, but would ask that you create a new thread for it if you wish to continue, and focus solely on responding to the first point - that you cannot demonstrate that your definitions of "contingent" and "necessary" actually apply to anything - in this one.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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07-02-2017, 02:41 PM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2017 02:49 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:32 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 02:30 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  In what sense (you see what I did there right Big Grin ) do you want me to justify my senses? I have manipulated them in more ways than years you've been alive. I can vouch for their unreliability if that's what you're after.

What I'm after is a reason to suspect that our senses ever actually do what we suppose they do. Also, nice pun.

What do you think they do? I think they impose a pattern on reality. The transducer is intrinsically tuned to only a teeny tiny specific frequency spectrum. It does an energy transformation on that bit of raw signal so we can even start to make sense of it. That's what transducers do.

(07-02-2017 02:25 PM)Naielis Wrote:  It seems this is relevant because this trust in our senses is foundational to almost every worldview.

Not only foundational, they're pretty much all we got. That and an understanding and appreciation for how to use them.

(07-02-2017 02:25 PM)Naielis Wrote:  In other words, does every belief require justification?

I don't believe so.

#sigh
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07-02-2017, 02:42 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:12 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Sorry I'm at school right now and I'm trying to type out full responses to your posts. I like that you are willing to engage the arguments more than some others.

Take your time. I just wanted to be sure that I hadn't been placed on ignore, or something of that kind.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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