The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
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07-02-2017, 03:10 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:37 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 02:35 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Which is irrelevant.

The question is not "do you think these premises are silly?". The question is "can you establish that these premises are actually true?".

You cannot.

The arguments are therefore discarded.

I think I can establish that the PSR is true. Would you agree that if the PSR is true, then there would have to be a necessary being as the first cause?

The PSR is provisional. We don't actually know that everything has a cause and there is evidence to suggest some things don't.

I don't accept it as a true premise, nor should you. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-02-2017, 03:14 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 03:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 02:25 PM)Naielis Wrote:  I agree, but do you think there is a way in which we can justify our senses? And if not, do you think we can justify our lack of justification. In other words, does every belief require justification? It seems this is relevant because this trust in our senses is foundational to almost every worldview.

Our senses are justified in that they agree with others' senses and give repeatable, consistent results.

I think they call that consensus theory and I think it is sufficient for all intent and purpose. I find the coherence theory more intriguing but that's just me whacking off.

#sigh
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07-02-2017, 03:14 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:44 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 02:41 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  What do you think they do? I think they impose a pattern on reality. The transducer is intrinsically tuned to only a teeny tiny specific frequency spectrum. It does a transform on that bit of raw signal so we can even make sense of it. That's what transducers do.

But you only know this bit about your senses by using your senses. You would have to assume their reliability to begin with. Humans assume senses can depict reality semi-accurately. How do we justify this?

Because they allow us to function adequately and enable us to extend our senses (optics, transducers) based on the experience that they are reliable within their limits.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-02-2017, 03:15 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:27 PM)Naielis Wrote:  You are judging me. You're noticing my age and extrapolating from it. You assume that I lack understanding on this issue instead of considering the possibility that you are wrong. It's condescending and patronizing.

No I am not.

I was 17, 35 years ago.

When were you 52?

I can judge you if you like. But then you won't like it. Wink

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07-02-2017, 03:17 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:54 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 02:44 PM)Naielis Wrote:  But you only know this bit about your senses by using your senses. You would have to assume their reliability to begin with. Humans assume senses can depict reality semi-accurately. How do we justify this?

I don't think we can. It's ultimately an untenable position. But I think it is also a necessary assumption or we'd go mad. Mad I tell you, mad. :creepypsychovoice:




Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-02-2017, 03:20 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:37 PM)Naielis Wrote:  I think I can establish that the PSR is true.

Then do it. We can discuss the implications after you have actually managed to establish it.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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07-02-2017, 03:24 PM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2017 04:00 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 11:41 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  God why do you lace every post with an insult?

I don't, Just to fools who deserve it. You certainly have proven yourself to be one.

Quote:And you can't claim to love evidence if you're going to continually fail to provide evidence for your claims.

..... says the infant who makes patronizing pronouncements with no reasons attached.
I never said I "love evidence". That's one of the pieces of rote crap insults you learned from sitting at the feet of WLC.

Quote:Your first statement is just science works because science works.

It is no such thing. Any even moderately intelligent person observes it working all the time, and only a fucking liar or idiot would claim it doesn't work,
considering the MASSIVE amount of evidence surrounding us, all day , all the time. The fucking lights are on. Science works, you troll.
You think you ask "deep questions". You don't. you're just an annoying pompous child.

Quote:Your second statement is just an assertion and an attempt to appeal to emotion.

It is not you fucking judgmental troll.
I work in a hospital. I realize in your childish ivory tower, you have no experience at ANYTHING scientific, real or otherwise, but I have a great deal of EXPERIENCE in an acute care hospital, and I KNOW
firsthand what science can do, and so does everyone else here, except you. Guess who's the moron ?

BTW, you conveniently left out a reply to what you were taught about your stupid "intenionalty / duality" bullshit.

Quote:Your third statement is just another insult. Do you have any answer to my question? Remember I asked how you know science works. You respond by saying we know it works. Irrelevant thesis fallacy.

Fuck you. Any moron knows we know science works because through MULITPLE REPEATED verified observations an outcome is tested and repeatedly observed, and the SCIENTIFIC METHOD makes successful predictions. Your childish "but why mommy, but why mommy" tells us you have the mentality of a 3 year old. ANYONE with even a 6th Grade education knows the answer to that.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-02-2017, 03:32 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 03:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 11:41 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  God why do you lace every post with an insult?

I don't, Just to fools who deserve it. You certainly have proven yourself to be one.

You're talking to yourself again buddy. Don't let me stop you though. Big Grin

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07-02-2017, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2017 04:01 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:27 PM)Naielis Wrote:  You are judging me. You're noticing my age and extrapolating from it. You assume that I lack understanding on this issue instead of considering the possibility that you are wrong. It's condescending and patronizing.

.... says the condescending patronizing troll who asks 3rd Grade questions.

We LEARN (of course you have NO EDUCATION in childhood learning, or science for that matter, OR you would not be asking this), to validate and correct our observations. We learn what can be trusted or not trusted by repeated TESTS of many kinds. Stop asking 1st Grade questions, OR go away, and ask Craig your idiotic juvenile questions, which, no doubt, you think are *profound*.

Can we ask the Mods for a pre-school section for these trolls who stop by as candidates for our nutcase-a-week plan ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-02-2017, 04:41 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(07-02-2017 02:25 PM)Naielis Wrote:  I agree, but do you think there is a way in which we can justify our senses? And if not, do you think we can justify our lack of justification.

Others have already addressed this but what is the alternative? If we can't justify our senses then we can not make any decisions about anything. Even the laws of logic are unreliable because we are disconnected from any information about reality. From a purely practical viewpoint we have to assume our senses are reasonably accurate.

Quote:In other words, does every belief require justification?

No, there are presuppositions in every area. The existence of an objective reality and the ability to reliably interact with that reality I take as presuppositions.

Quote:It seems this is relevant because this trust in our senses is foundational to almost every worldview.

I don't see how you could have an accurate worldview if you didn't have a way to view the world.

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