The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
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06-02-2017, 12:41 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(06-02-2017 12:37 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(06-02-2017 12:34 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So basically you *do* accept the traditional definitions of the gods. (You said you accept that it could be plural.)

Justify "fascinating" is enough for me". So it's all about you ?

Well it is when you mention relevance in this manner. It's a subjective question.

Quote:What's relevant for you, may not be relevant to anyone else. A cause that NEVER intervenes or shows itself may be fascinating to a few. It's totally irrelevant to the world.

I never said it didn't intervene. And truth is fascinating. This is why science is so important. It's not because it helps society improve. It's that truth itself has value.

You have not a shred of evidence for any intervention.
It's not a subjective question. (BTW, subjective does not mean "unimportant")

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06-02-2017, 12:42 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2017 12:47 PM by Ace.)
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(06-02-2017 11:57 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(06-02-2017 11:52 AM)Ace Wrote:  listen reason and logic won't help you prove anything exists unless you have hard evidence to back it up and arguments don't qualify as evidence

So if I wrote a mathematical proof showing that 0.99... repeating on forever is equal to 1, would you not believe me until I showed it with physical evidence? Your standard seems to be empiricism. But empiricism is subservient to a priori deductive arguments.

P1. jumbo is an elephant
P2. all elephants are pink
conclusion: jumbo is pink

this is a valid deduction except for one little problem.... until you can prove elephants in the real world are in fact pink the argument is wrong by default

mathematical proofs are just analytical propositions
analytical propositions are true provided they are non-contradictory and, there is no requirement that they have any precedence or effect in the real world

if you claim it exists then its automatically a synthetic propositions, and empiricism is the only known way of proving those
synthetic propositions are claims about the world and are only true if they can be shown to be true

empiricism is NOT subservient to a priori deductive arguments.

do you know why ?
because no matter how valid the logic or reasoning behind an argument is, reality will NOT be affected by any logic or argument we come up

you can logically deduce all day that the amount of CO2 is present in 1 meter cube of air is 1%
but it won't be considered true unless you actually measure the the amount of CO2 in 1 cubic meter of air and it also shows 1%
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06-02-2017, 12:43 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(06-02-2017 12:30 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(06-02-2017 12:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You said it has the property of being "necessary". That's not the ONLY possibility. Why should it "have any property" ?
A real First Cause would have either no properties or all properties.
The fact that you define it as a "subset" of Reality is self-refuting.

Well if a being has no properties, then I would argue that it doesn't exist.

You evaded the POINT. "Properties" means it's not ALL of Reality.
Reality remains unexplained.

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06-02-2017, 12:43 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(06-02-2017 12:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yeah there is. All kinds of things. Love for example. Facepalm
You REALLY are immature.
It's called evidence.

Love? Love isn't a method for determining truth. It's a vaguely defined sense of elation directed towards a person or things. And there's no need to call me immature because you disagree with my argument. I think we're getting somewhere. Ad hominems only slow us down. Are you saying evidence is beyond logic? If so, please define evidence because I don't think we're operating on the same definition.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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06-02-2017, 12:44 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(06-02-2017 12:37 PM)Naielis Wrote:  It's that truth itself has value.

Which is what ?

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06-02-2017, 12:47 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(06-02-2017 12:43 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(06-02-2017 12:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yeah there is. All kinds of things. Love for example. Facepalm
You REALLY are immature.
It's called evidence.

Love? Love isn't a method for determining truth. It's a vaguely defined sense of elation directed towards a person or things. And there's no need to call me immature because you disagree with my argument. I think we're getting somewhere. Ad hominems only slow us down. Are you saying evidence is beyond logic? If so, please define evidence because I don't think we're operating on the same definition.

More moving the goal posts. You said "Do you think we need something beyond logic? There exists no such thing. Are you suggesting science is illogical?"
You said NOTHING about evidence beyond logic" ..... and I just proved to you that logic is INSUFFICIENT. Did logic ever tell anyone how to cure any illness ?
You are really immature.

I'm done here.
I don't need to raise a child at this point.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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06-02-2017, 12:50 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(06-02-2017 12:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  More moving the goal posts. You said "Do you think we need something beyond logic? There exists no such thing. Are you suggesting science is illogical?"
You said NOTHING about evidence beyond logic" ..... and I just proved to you that logic is INSUFFICIENT. Did logic ever tell anyone how to cure any illness ?
You are really immature.

I'm done here.
I don't need to raise a child at this point.

Yes logic did tell people how to cure illness. We used a logical process to determine a truth about reality. How exactly did you prove logic was insufficient? And please stop calling me immature. There really is no reason to get angry. If truth is important to you, anger is inappropriate in discussion.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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06-02-2017, 12:56 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(06-02-2017 12:40 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Interesting. So you would hold that math doesn't always describes physical reality.

Sure. I have worked in the past with mathematicians who use Maths to describe how an infection spreads throughout a population.

This is based first on empirical observation, and then they come up with formulae to model the evidence. If they didn't first look at the evidence and just created some random formulae, then no, their Maths would not then describe physical reality.


(06-02-2017 12:40 PM)Naielis Wrote:  but in my metaphysic, languages are used to describe reality.

As I said, Maths is a language, a tool, that has been invented, and continues to be invented to allow people to reason about certain problems. If the human race disappeared, then so would Maths.
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06-02-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(06-02-2017 12:50 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Yes logic did tell people how to cure illness. We used a logical process to determine a truth about reality. How exactly did you prove logic was insufficient? And please stop calling me immature. There really is no reason to get angry. If truth is important to you, anger is inappropriate in discussion.

Logic is only as good as the data that you use.



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06-02-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: The Cosmological Arguments Haven't Been Debunked
(06-02-2017 12:50 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(06-02-2017 12:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  More moving the goal posts. You said "Do you think we need something beyond logic? There exists no such thing. Are you suggesting science is illogical?"
You said NOTHING about evidence beyond logic" ..... and I just proved to you that logic is INSUFFICIENT. Did logic ever tell anyone how to cure any illness ?
You are really immature.

I'm done here.
I don't need to raise a child at this point.

Yes logic did tell people how to cure illness. We used a logical process to determine a truth about reality. How exactly did you prove logic was insufficient? And please stop calling me immature. There really is no reason to get angry. If truth is important to you, anger is inappropriate in discussion.

Logic *alone* NEVER told anyone how to cure anything. You have NOT ONE example of that. Logic alone never discovered anything. It's necessary but insufficient. It never described Quantum Mechanics. It never described Relativity.

No one is angry. You're childish "phase" is not worth it.

You haven't answered the problems of other logics, Primacy of Existence, or explained how a First Cause can "already" have a property in a larger Reality, and how that Reality came to be.

Get busy.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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