The Dawkins Scale
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18-08-2015, 04:01 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2015 04:21 PM by Unbeliever.)
RE: The Dawkins Scale
Free Wrote:My entire point about the chair scenario was in regards to observation and detection. Sure, in the case of the chair itself, it could be possible that you do not see it.

But if you exasperate every known method of detection of that chair, and still do not detect its presence in any way, then you can make the positive claim that the chair simply isn't there.

Claiming that its possible that it could still be there despite the fact that it isn't is simply a faith claim. Hanging onto a thread without reason makes the thread itself non existent, after all ... what are you hanging on to?

Precisely. It is, as I have pointed out previously, a garage dragon.

Garage dragons do not exist.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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18-08-2015, 04:02 PM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 03:54 PM)Free Wrote:  But if you exasperate every known method of detection of that chair, and still do not detect its presence in any way, then you can make the positive claim that the chair simply isn't there.
But that is not how the scientific method works.
Scientist claim that dark matter and dark energy exist in abundance in our universe, far outweighing light matter.
And yet it has never been detected, using all known methods of observation.

And yet, scientists still claim that our universe is mostly made up of dark matter and dark energy.

They focus on trying to discover a way to observe dark matter and dark energy.
There was a time where bacteria, viruses and microbes were unobservable but then they discovered new ways to observe them.
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18-08-2015, 04:04 PM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2015 04:09 PM by Matt Finney.)
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 03:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 11:38 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I find it hilarious that everyone seems to know the probability of god's existence.
People are just being lax with words.

Matt, would you be ingnostic?

You're right. The way I said that was very abrasive and I apologize to everyone who might have taken offense to that.

Regarding ignosticism, I suppose I could be describe my position as ignostic.

My main problem with Dawkin's scale is that positions 2-7 are consistent with atheism. I would argue that everyone is either a theist or an atheist. I think Dawkin's scale only serves to muddy the waters. You might ask why I think this way, or what my scale is. For me it's very simple. We can look at the claim "god exists." You either accept this claim, or you don't. You either think it's true that god exists or you don't. If you think you're uncertain as to whether or not god exists, then you don't hold the belief that god exists. Anyone who doesn't believe that god exists is an atheist.

We can ask one very simple question to find out if someone is a theist or an atheist.

Do you believe that god exists?

Anything but a "yes" indicates atheism.
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18-08-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 03:54 PM)Free Wrote:  You see we can make claims that something does not exist and accept that as being knowledge, and accept it as being factual. If in the future we were proven wrong, then fine. But we cannot live our lives on what may, or may not be.

We live our lives for what is.

That may be how you live your life, that doesn't mean it does or should apply for everyone.

We can indeed live our lives that way and some live it more like that than others. I think there may be far less strife if people did actually think out and examine possibilities before making certain conclusions far more. That's part of the flaw of our need to make quick decisions for survival purposes.

To the former statements, it's not really about a case of faith of possibility or not. It's about certainty and what you know or not. I don't know for absolute certainty is position which contains no claim of chance but an assessment of your personal limits.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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18-08-2015, 04:06 PM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 04:01 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 03:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  My entire point about the chair scenario was in regards to observation and detection. Sure, in the case of the chair itself, it could be possible that you do not see it.

But if you exasperate every known method of detection of that chair, and still do not detect its presence in any way, then you can make the positive claim that the chair simply isn't there.

Claiming that its possible that it could still be there despite the fact that it isn't is simply a faith claim. Hanging onto a thread without reason makes the thread itself non existent, after all ... what are you hanging on to?

Precisely. It is, as I have pointed out previously, a garage dragon.

Garage dragons do not exist.

Not Stevil.

Me.

Thumbsup

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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18-08-2015, 04:07 PM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 04:04 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 03:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  People are just being lax with words.

Matt, would you be ingnostic?

You're right. The way I said that was very abrasive and I apologize to everyone who might have taken offense to that.

Regarding ignosticism, I suppose I could be describe my position as ignostic.

My main problem with Dawkin's scale is that positions 2-7 are consistent with atheism. I would argue that everyone is either a theist or an atheist. I think Dawkin's scale only serves to muddy the waters. You might ask why I think this way, or what my scale is. For me it's very simple. We can look at the claim "god exists." You either accept this claim, or you don't. You either think it's true that god exists or you don't. If you think you're uncertain as to whether or not god exists, then you don't hold the belief that god exists. Anyone who doesn't believe that god exists is an atheist.

We can ask one very simple question to find out if someone is a theist or an atheist.

Do you believe that god exists?

Anything but an "yes" indicates atheism.

But a 2-3 would say Yes... so I don't get what your objection is.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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18-08-2015, 04:08 PM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 04:02 PM)Stevil Wrote:  But that is not how the scientific method works.

Yes, it is.

(18-08-2015 04:02 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Scientist claim that dark matter and dark energy exist in abundance in our universe, far outweighing light matter.
And yet it has never been detected, using all known methods of observation.

Aside from the fact that it arguably has, dark matter is and always has been a hypothesis. It makes predictions. It tells us what kind of evidence we will find and where to look for it. If that evidence is not found, then the dark matter hypothesis will be discarded.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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18-08-2015, 04:14 PM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 04:02 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 03:54 PM)Free Wrote:  But if you exasperate every known method of detection of that chair, and still do not detect its presence in any way, then you can make the positive claim that the chair simply isn't there.
But that is not how the scientific method works.
Scientist claim that dark matter and dark energy exist in abundance in our universe, far outweighing light matter.

It's like this:

Assertion: No evidence, and can be dismissed as false.
Hypothesis: Some evidence and can be investigated.
Theory: Good evidence and has a great chance of being proven factual.
Fact: Proven by evidence.

So in that science scenario, they have some evidence to support the hypothesis.
In regards to the Big Bang, they have very good evidence to support the theory.
In mathematics, it is a fact that 1 + 1 = 2.

But in the God scenario, where there is not shred of evidence to even support the most remote possibility, it is an assertion that can be dismissed completely. We can come to a conclusion based upon observing the fact that there is absolutely nothing to observe.

Quote:And yet it has never been detected, using all known methods of observation.
And yet, scientists still claim that our universe is mostly made up of dark matter and dark energy.

But they have evidence to support the hypothesis.

Quote:They focus on trying to discover a way to observe dark matter and dark energy. There was a time where bacteria, viruses and microbes were unobservable but then they discovered new ways to observe them.

But if they didn't have other evidence that indicated that something such as the bacteria etc existed, they wouldn't even be looking.

God has no evidence at all. Period. None.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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18-08-2015, 04:14 PM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 08:56 AM)morondog Wrote:  I don't believe in scales Tongue

That's cause you're fat and don't like to be reminded of it.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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18-08-2015, 04:16 PM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 04:06 PM)Free Wrote:  Not Stevil.

Me.

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oh shit i've been caught

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"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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