The Dawkins Scale
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18-08-2015, 09:56 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 09:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Nothing about that correspond to a number on the Dawkin's scale.

Unless you "know that there is no God", than you wouldn't be a 7.

Please, tell me more about what I do and don't believe. I did not know you were a clairvoyant.

I'm telling you how the scale is defined. And that if you don't fall under the definition of a 7 under the scale, then you wouldn't be a 7.

Perhaps your views don't fit anywhere on that scale.
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18-08-2015, 09:56 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
Burden of proof falls on person making a claim.

Theists make god claims

Atheists reject god claims

I know no god claim by a theist is substantiated with proof or evidence. I know they are bullshit. Until a theist brings actual evidence or proof of their claim, I continue to reject their mythical and/or imaginary friends. Drinking Beverage Pretty fucking simple.

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18-08-2015, 09:57 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 09:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Please, tell me more about what I do and don't believe. I did not know you were a clairvoyant.

I'm telling you how the scale is defined. And that if you don't fall under the definition of a 7 under the scale, then you wouldn't be a 7.

Perhaps your belief don't fit anywhere on that scale.

Incorrect. You don't understand what the different levels mean with regard to rejecting god claims. Drinking Beverage

Keep trying to tell me what I do and don't believe though. Drinking Beverage

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18-08-2015, 09:57 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
I don't get the "you atheists have beliefs" argument by theists... if you use the word "belief" as an insult, you're devastating your own religion.

Is it the idea that "we both have beliefs and thus we both stand on equal ground"? Even this argument surrenders to the atheist position because either 1) both ideas are equally meaningless opinion, and the atheist is the only one who needs no meaning in order to hold his position comfortably, or 2) there is further ground required to hold such belief, and the atheist need only point to the holes in the theological positions advanced and show that the god-stories are projections of human psychology, easily done, while the theist must assert some basis for their perfect deity or amorphous "creator-concept".

If it simply comes down to "I believe in a being that made the world but doesn't interact with it", the only one that can't be directly be disproved, then what's the difference between the two positions except label?

There is no way in which the "atheism is a belief" argument is healthy for a theist to make. And atheists shouldn't run away from the title... instead, we should say "Yes, and here is what my belief is based upon. (And then state any number of GwoG's useful posts on religious errancy.) What's your evidence, that I can't do the same thing to, buddy?"

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-08-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 09:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm telling you how the scale is defined. And that if you don't fall under the definition of a 7 under the scale, then you wouldn't be a 7.

Perhaps your belief don't fit anywhere on that scale.

Incorrect. You don't understand what the different levels mean with regard to rejecting god claims. Drinking Beverage

Keep trying to tell me what I do and don't believe though. Drinking Beverage

To quote Dawkins:

"7- Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung "knows" there is one.'

If this doesn't define you, than you're not a 7.
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18-08-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 09:49 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:47 AM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  Can you read?

Yes, as per Dawkin's:

7- Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung "knows" there is one.'

I can make that knowledge claim.

I know God does not exist in the same way that I know I do exist.

Knowledge is not restricted to the existence of things, for we can also know that something does not exist.

If you point into an empty room and tell me a chair exists in the middle of the room, if I do not see a chair in the middle of the room then I know it doesn't exist. I am not required to acknowledge any possibility that the chair is in the room, because the knowledge I have states that it clearly isn't there.

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18-08-2015, 09:59 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
2, then 4, now 6.
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18-08-2015, 09:59 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 09:57 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I don't get the "you atheists have beliefs" argument by theists... if you use the word "belief" as an insult, you're devastating your own religion.

Is it the idea that "we both have beliefs and thus we both stand on equal ground"? Even this argument surrenders to the atheist position because either 1) both ideas are equally meaningless opinion, and the atheist is the only one who needs no meaning in order to hold his position comfortably, or 2) there is further ground required to hold such belief, and the atheist need only point to the holes in the theological positions advanced and show that the god-stories are projections of human psychology, easily done, while the theist must assert some basis for their perfect deity or amorphous "creator-concept".

If it simply comes down to "I believe in a being that made the world but doesn't interact with it", the only one that can't be directly be disproved, then what's the difference between the two positions except title?

There is no way in which the "atheism is a belief" argument is healthy for a theist to make. And atheists shouldn't run away from the title... instead, we should say "Yes, and here is what my belief is based upon. (And then state any number of GwoG's useful posts on religious errancy.) What's your evidence, that I can't do the same thing to, buddy?"

It is the exact same thing when theists claim that atheists have faith. By trying to proclaim that atheists have faith in the reaction of a god, they are admitting that faith is a fundamentally weak position and they are acknowledging their own insecurity over believing anything on faith.

It is kind of amusing.

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18-08-2015, 10:00 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
I'm with Reltzik and a few others. Christian God, as described in the Bible? No way. I'm very close to a 7 on that one. Some sort of God? I'm a 6. I will also say, as I've said before, that I consider both 1 and 7 to be unreasonable. We cannot possibly know either extreme with certainty. You can be very close to one end or the other, but if you claim to know that God exists (or that he doesn't), I think you're fooling yourself.
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18-08-2015, 10:00 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 09:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:39 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I disagree. Even a 7 is making no claim except about their own belief. Likewise for the theist. Until an atheist or theist makes an argument that takes a persuasive form there is no claim.

Once a claim is actually made, that's when the question of a burden of proof comes into play.

I agree, if what we mean by claim, is an argument intended to convince someone else.

But what I would say is.

is this:

4, is a mere lack of belief that God exist

5, 6, are both a belief that God does not exist

While 7, is knowing God doesn't not exist.

While none of these correspond to claims, some do correspond to beliefs.

While there may be a difference between knowledge and belief, I don't see a meaningful distinction between the claim "I know this to be true" and "I believe this to be true". I'm not convinced that 6 and 7 are different on the Dawkins scale. Self identifying as an atheist already implies "I believe to the point that I'm willing to bet my (eternal) life on it", so quibbling over the last few percent seems pointless to me.

I work in safety related systems. I understand that nothing is 100%, but if we required 100% confidence in any proposition we wouldn't be able to live at all. Some God claims are logically inconsistent and at least appear to be 100% disproven but most are just entirely unsupported. But we have to live. We have to move on with our lives we can't be scared of every god monster in the closet.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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