The Dawkins Scale
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18-08-2015, 10:00 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 09:58 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:57 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Incorrect. You don't understand what the different levels mean with regard to rejecting god claims. Drinking Beverage

Keep trying to tell me what I do and don't believe though. Drinking Beverage

To quote Dawkins:

"7- Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung "knows" there is one.'

If this doesn't define you, than you're not a 7.

7. There is no god, so I don't believe in one and know one does not exist.

Keep trying to tell me what I do and don't believe though. Pray for me to understand Laughat

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18-08-2015, 10:03 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 09:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:39 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I disagree. Even a 7 is making no claim except about their own belief. Likewise for the theist. Until an atheist or theist makes an argument that takes a persuasive form there is no claim.

Once a claim is actually made, that's when the question of a burden of proof comes into play.

I agree, if what we mean by claim, is an argument intended to convince someone else.

But what I would say is.

is this:

4, is a mere lack of belief that God exist

5, 6, are both a belief that God does not exist

While 7, is knowing God doesn't not exist.

While none of these correspond to claims, some do correspond to beliefs.

Sigh.

We can argue semantics about what counts as an outright belief or a leaning.

Atheism, broadly defined, is an absence (or lack, though I prefer "absence") of a belief that God exists.

Someone at a 4 is absent a belief that God exists.

Similarly, someone at a 5, 6, or 7 is absent a belief that God exists, whatever other beliefs they might have on the subject.

Furthermore, 7 is not KNOWLEDGE, so much as CONFIDENCE. I can be 100% sure the moon is made of silicate rock, and you can be 100% confident that it is made of green cheese, without either of us having checked. Neither of us could properly be said to KNOW based solely on the strength of our confidence. Perhaps there IS evidence to justify that strength, and perhaps there isn't, but that strength of confidence does not for one second logically imply that there is.
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18-08-2015, 10:03 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
People keep splitting this up into specific god claims (like saying they are a 7 for the christian god) and then some sort of more nebulous god claim (and give a different number).

I don't see a reason to make the distinction. For specific gods, there is no evidence where it would be expected. For a more nebulous god claim, there can be no evidence because it is untestable and unfalsifiable, making it indistinguishable from imagination. I believe imaginations exist and that people believe in their imaginary friends, but without any external evidence or reason to believe, it too is a concept without evidence where it should be expected.

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18-08-2015, 10:04 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 09:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  Re-read the definitions of 6, 5, and 4; then re-read my post.

I'm referring to the actual definitions by Dawkins. According to Dawkins anything less than a 100% certain but more than 50% corresponds to a belief.

Not in the sense you are trying to imply.
Admitting the possibility of existence is not a belief in the existence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-08-2015, 10:04 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 09:57 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I don't get the "you atheists have beliefs" argument by theists... if you use the word "belief" as an insult, you're devastating your own religion.

I think it’s dishonest for people who believe something, to pretend that they “merely lack a belief”. I don’t think it’s insulting to believe, I think it’s insulting to say you merely lack a belief, but then define yourself as a 6 on the Dawkins scale.

Quote:And atheists shouldn't run away from the title... instead, we should say "Yes, and here is what my belief is based upon

I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment.
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18-08-2015, 10:05 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 09:39 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  The fact claim that there is no God is defined as 7 on the Dawkins scale. Anything less is not making that claim.

I disagree. Even a 7 is making no claim except about their own belief. Likewise for the theist. Until an atheist or theist makes an argument that takes a persuasive form there is no claim.

Once a claim is actually made, that's when the question of a burden of proof comes into play.

Expressing a certainty that there is no God is the same as claiming there is no God.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-08-2015, 10:06 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 10:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm referring to the actual definitions by Dawkins. According to Dawkins anything less than a 100% certain but more than 50% corresponds to a belief.

Not in the sense you are trying to imply.
Admitting the possibility of existence is not a belief in the existence.

Thumbsup

Those were the words I was looking for. Thank you.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

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18-08-2015, 10:07 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
You can't be an atheist, without theistic claims. Ergo, atheists (by default) don't possess positive beliefs about god claims, but reject these claims. Atheists might believe other things in a positive sense, but not with respect to god claims.

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18-08-2015, 10:10 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 09:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 09:39 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I disagree. Even a 7 is making no claim except about their own belief. Likewise for the theist. Until an atheist or theist makes an argument that takes a persuasive form there is no claim.

Once a claim is actually made, that's when the question of a burden of proof comes into play.

I agree, if what we mean by claim, is an argument intended to convince someone else.

But what I would say is.

is this:

4, is a mere lack of belief that God exist

5, 6, are both a belief that God does not exist

While 7, is knowing God doesn't not exist.

While none of these correspond to claims, some do correspond to beliefs.

No; #4, 5, and 6 do not correspond to beliefs.

Quote:Dawkins argues that while there appear to be plenty of individuals that would place themselves as "1" due to the strictness of religious doctrine against doubt, most atheists do not consider themselves "7" because atheism arises from a lack of evidence and evidence can always change a thinking person's mind. In print, Dawkins self-identified as a '6', though when interviewed by Bill Maher[3] and later by Anthony Kenny,[4] he suggested '6.9' to be more accurate.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-08-2015, 10:12 AM
RE: The Dawkins Scale
(18-08-2015 10:03 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  People keep splitting this up into specific god claims (like saying they are a 7 for the christian god) and then some sort of more nebulous god claim (and give a different number).

I don't see a reason to make the distinction. For specific gods, there is no evidence where it would be expected. For a more nebulous god claim, there can be no evidence because it is untestable and unfalsifiable, making it indistinguishable from imagination. I believe imaginations exist and that people believe in their imaginary friends, but without any external evidence or reason to believe, it too is a concept without evidence where it should be expected.

Well Christian God, if one defines attributes and doesn't mind too much about say the Problem of Evil (which already puts him into questionable God territory) has some specific claims -
  • he speaks with a booming voice
  • he occasionally starts fires if the priest sets up a sufficiently public fire-starting performance
  • he stops rain because the king is bad
  • he cures people of diseases
  • he answers prayers from believers *unconditionally*
  • he does the pillar of smoke / pillar of fire thing (also possible to do with large amounts of gasoline but whatevs).

There's a whole bunch of shit which it's claimed that he has done, used to do etc, and not a shred of credible evidence for any of it. So very easy to be strongly skeptical of this God, so that can be a 6.9.

If you don't claim as much for your God, you don't have as strong of a God, but you also don't have as hard a time with skepticism. You're claiming less. If you claim some kind of non-falsifiable deist God the most I can say is I think he exists to the same degree I think Santa exists - not at all, but not actually, y'know, with evidence *against*, unlike, no talking pillars of fire have been reported since we developed the necessary equipment to fact-check such claims... So that can be a 6.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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