Poll: should we update the Declaration of Independence?
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The Declaration of Independence
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02-07-2016, 09:55 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2016 10:02 AM by TrainWreck.)
Exclamation The Declaration of Independence
Let's update the Declaration of Independence, and replace the terms that we do not like with the terms that would be more appropriate for the musing of atheists. If you are of the inkling, and I know most of you are very good writers (I'm very jealous Angel ), then how about writing a declaration. The reason we want to do this is because it is inevitable that the United States will need a new political charter system and such an article will be necessary for the introduction.

Here is what I have thus far

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Course of Social Evolution entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all humans are created equal, that they are endowed by Humanity with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among People, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the Citizens to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these states; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present United States Government is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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03-07-2016, 01:15 AM
RE: The Declaration of Independence
Here's mine:

Deliver bread, freedom and justice... or fuck off!

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03-07-2016, 02:07 AM
RE: The Declaration of Independence
Updating a historical document ... that's like civic botox, isn't it?
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03-07-2016, 05:39 AM
RE: The Declaration of Independence
(02-07-2016 09:55 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Let's update the Declaration of Independence, and replace the terms that we do not like with the terms that would be more appropriate for the musing of atheists. If you are of the inkling, and I know most of you are very good writers (I'm very jealous Angel ), then how about writing a declaration. The reason we want to do this is because it is inevitable that the United States will need a new political charter system and such an article will be necessary for the introduction.

Here is what I have thus far

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Course of Social Evolution entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all humans are created equal, that they are endowed by Humanity with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among People, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the Citizens to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these states; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present United States Government is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Why? What is the purpose?

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03-07-2016, 05:45 AM
RE: The Declaration of Independence
You do understand that the Declaration of Independence was not "Law" but an informal letter to tell the king to fuck off.

America didn't become a nation officially until the ink was dry on the Constitution after they won the war. And while the 2nd Amendment could have been written better, I think the 1rst amendment should have made it more clear that the anti-monopoly concept that it is, should include the private sector as well.

But outside that, I don't blame the Constitution itself. When you talk about human beings, there will always be greed and lust for power and attempts to game any system you set up. But as far as the Constitution, it is still a good guide that can when people use it, be that very anti monopoly concept.

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03-07-2016, 05:50 AM
RE: The Declaration of Independence
(02-07-2016 09:55 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  Let's update the Declaration of Independence, and replace the terms that we do not like with the terms that would be more appropriate for the musing of atheists.

How very Orwellian of you.

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03-07-2016, 10:30 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2016 10:48 AM by TrainWreck.)
RE: The Declaration of Independence
(03-07-2016 05:45 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  You do understand that the Declaration of Independence was not "Law" but an informal letter to tell the king to fuck off.
Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load
I do not understand why you would suggest that the Declaration of Independence was "informal." It was a law. The Declaration of Independence was a petition of grievances stating the aggrieved party's intentions to the subsisting government. It was a passive declaration of revolution (war), and that is law. They had no intention of implementing anarchy as a solution.
Quote:-That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

(03-07-2016 05:45 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  America didn't become a nation officially until the ink was dry on the Constitution after they won the war. And while the 2nd Amendment could have been written better, I think the 1rst amendment should have made it more clear that the anti-monopoly concept that it is, should include the private sector as well.
The United States was founded under the Articles of Confederation, but it was written to facilitate the war effort - it was inadequate for the peace time building of a nation-state. The Federal Constitution was the solution for organizing the economy/commerce of the several states.

(03-07-2016 05:45 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  But outside that, I don't blame the Constitution itself. When you talk about human beings, there will always be greed and lust for power and attempts to game any system you set up. But as far as the Constitution, it is still a good guide that can when people use it, be that very anti monopoly concept.
Explain "anti monopoly."

Yeah, "game the system," that is how the constitution is run through its checks and balances.

I beg to differ. It is obvious that the powers of government are inadequately divided. The Constitution was written when there were very few people capable of understanding the need for an interstate government, much less, capable of organizing it, and much less, capable of describing it in prose.

Contemporaneously, we have a tremendously better understanding of what it is such a government is supposed to do - we can better detail the missions of the powers. We have the man-power to do it, and we have the improved technology to write it. I suggest we separate the powers into seven parts
  1. security departments - bureaucracy
  2. administration - leaders of the 4 legislative assemblies and supreme court, and popular president
  3. supreme court - six members supervise six courts
  4. senate of jurors - judicial review circuit of state judges
  5. board of governors - primarily concerned with commerce
  6. league of attorneys - commissioned by the board to litigate law and legislation, and write legislation for the board and network
  7. network of representatives - administrate the interior and propose legislation

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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03-07-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: The Declaration of Independence
(03-07-2016 10:30 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(03-07-2016 05:45 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  You do understand that the Declaration of Independence was not "Law" but an informal letter to tell the king to fuck off.
Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load
I do not understand why you would suggest that the Declaration of Independence was "informal." It was a law. The Declaration of Independence was a petition of grievances stating the aggrieved party's intentions to the subsisting government. It was a passive declaration of revolution (war), and that is law. They had no intention of implementing anarchy as a solution.
Quote:-That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

(03-07-2016 05:45 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  America didn't become a nation officially until the ink was dry on the Constitution after they won the war. And while the 2nd Amendment could have been written better, I think the 1rst amendment should have made it more clear that the anti-monopoly concept that it is, should include the private sector as well.
The United States was founded under the Articles of Confederation, but it was written to facilitate the war effort - it was inadequate for the peace time building of a nation-state. The Federal Constitution was the solution for organizing the commerce of the several states.

(03-07-2016 05:45 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  But outside that, I don't blame the Constitution itself. When you talk about human beings, there will always be greed and lust for power and attempts to game any system you set up. But as far as the Constitution, it is still a good guide that can when people use it, be that very anti monopoly concept.

I beg to differ. It is obvious that the powers of government are inadequately divided. The Constitution was written when there were very few people capable of understanding the need for an interstate government, much less, capable of organizing it, and much less, capable of describing it in prose.

Contemporaneously, we have a tremendously better understanding of what it is such a government is supposed to do - we can better detail the missions of the powers. We have the man-power to do it, and we have the improved technology to write it. I suggest we separate the powers into seven parts
  1. security departments - bureaucracy
  2. administration - leaders of the 4 legislative assemblies and supreme court, and popular president
  3. supreme court - six members supervise six courts
  4. senate of jurors - judicial review circuit of state judges
  5. board of governors - primarily concerned with commerce
  6. league of attorneys - commissioned by the board to litigate law and legislation, and write legislation for the board and network
  7. network of representatives - administrate the interior and propose legislation

No dumbass. The Constitution was "a law".
The Declaration was not a law.
What's wrong with the UN Charter on Human Rights.
(Oh. You never heard of it ... I should have known.)
http://www.un.org/en/universal-declarati...an-rights/

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03-07-2016, 10:56 AM
RE: The Declaration of Independence
The quote from the DoI that I added is a description of an unalienable right. The right of the people to revolt cannot be denied. That right is reinforced with freedom of speech and audited by regulatory law - allowing/causing the government to defend itself from revolution.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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03-07-2016, 11:09 AM (This post was last modified: 03-07-2016 11:31 AM by TrainWreck.)
RE: The Declaration of Independence
(03-07-2016 10:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What's wrong with the UN Charter on Human Rights.
(Oh. You never heard of it ... I should have known.)
http://www.un.org/en/universal-declarati...an-rights/

I may have come across it in my research of the UN a couple of years ago, when I implemented the Assembly Hall into the Federal Charter Inauguration procedure. Thumbsup

Yeah, I would agree that I have never heard of it - is it apart of the public education curriculum?

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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