The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
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07-07-2013, 11:46 AM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(07-07-2013 11:36 AM)The Theist Wrote:  Well, you have to consider the opposition, as an atheist, I would imagine. If you were looking up hell in the Hebrew and Greek you would have a better understanding of sheohl and haides, tartarus and Gehenna. If your looking up what the serpent said it isn't going to be much help so you have to compare that contextually.

I've studied mythology, actually. I hadn't brought up Hell, so I'm afraid I don't see the relevance of that particular reference.

(07-07-2013 11:36 AM)The Theist Wrote:  The entire Bible doesn't go on about a literal serpent speaking to Eve.

Genesis does. Why?

(07-07-2013 11:36 AM)The Theist Wrote:  Yeah. Exactly. Now we get to the really fun part . . . what is an Angel? Satan? Supernatural?

Mythological figures and the innately unverifiable, respectively.

Angels and Satan are characters mentioned in a number of myths. So are Brahma and the Pleiades. I see no particular reason to believe any of them exist or ever existed.

Talking animals, on the other hand, actually do exist. I may never have seen a donkey or a snake talk, but birds, apes, and cetaceans sure do...

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07-07-2013, 12:04 PM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(06-07-2013 05:31 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  You're right. I assumed that you held the popular theological beliefs on these points. I like your point-of-view because it is much more in line with several bible stories, but theologians don't hold these positions unreasonably -- these qualities protect other parts of the bible. For example, Philippians 4:13 says that "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me", which is clearly untrue if Christ can't do all things through himself. While Genesis makes God out to be lacking omnipotence and omnipresence, most of the bible doesn't, and you'll find that a lot of bible passages can't be true when you remove those qualities. But, overall, I re-iterate that your point-of-view does make *more* sense than the prevailing one.

Well, in the case of omnipotent and omniscient those qualities do apply somewhat to Jehovah God, but not in the quixotic fashion of religious tradition. Omnipresence is completely nonsensical as it is presented. So there is only the need of clarification as to any differences in the religious tradition and the Scriptures.

Yes, God can do anything that he wants to but that doesn't mean he wants to do everything.

I don't at all understand the point you are making on Philippians 4:13. Your point on theologians not holding the aforementioned positions unreasonably. I beg to differ. Anytime you read anything in the Bible it has to be harmonious with every other part, which is why a good theologian won't even consider a point unless he can find at least two of the same within the Bible.

So, the theologians, influenced by the philosophy of Socrates immortal soul, will directly contradict, Ezekiel 18:4, which says the soul dies.

(06-07-2013 05:31 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  So most of the arguments I made wouldn't are straw-man attacks, given what you personally believe. However, it still doesn't make sense that Eve got punished for being deceived. Why would it matter if Adam sinned without deception? You'll note that everyone got punished, including Eve (by getting thrown out of the garden) and women in general (through painful childbirth) despite getting deceived into her sin. So let's not pretend that only Adam's actions mattered.

Also, the scripture doesn't even suggest that Satan spoke through the serpent. The snake is referred to 100% of the time as a snake, and Satan isn't even mentioned once in the entire book of Genesis. The punishments given to the snake, such as "crawling on your belly all your life" and "bruising man's heel" and "getting bruised by man's heel" and "eating dust" are things that don't make sense in the context of Satan's punishments, but they all make sense in the context of punishments towards snakes (assuming that snakes eat dust, which was probably the limited scientific view of snakes at the time). Many people have tried to make sense of the illogical idea that a snake would talk by making it into Satan, but there's no scriptural support for it. It would appear, from this passage, that the talking snake was just a talking snake.

Excellent points. In order to properly address them you and I would have to take a look at the first prophecy of a Messiah, Genesis 3:15, and how, throughout the Bible the things you are talking about regarding Adam and Eve and the Serpent and Satan all unfold. Especially how this has a sort of double application, with the primary importance being a metaphorical application to Satan and his seed and God's seed.
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08-07-2013, 09:50 PM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(07-07-2013 08:28 AM)The Theist Wrote:  How do you know the laws of a creator of this universe which itself has laws and limitations? Besides, what I said was that there are limits to how the words omnipotent and omniscient should be applied which are often overlooked by the religous. God can't lie, for example, isn't a limitation of God, as such, it is him keeping within his own sense of justice. If he transcended that for the sake of being all powerful his sense of justice would be diminished. He could lie or he could wave a staff and make it true but that doesn't adhere to his justice, which his creation was based upon.

No, what you said was:

(05-07-2013 09:38 AM)The Theist Wrote:  This is somewhat problematic. The religious tradition tends to lean towards omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent in the strictest sense, meaning, totally.

Consider a basic usage of a similar word, omnivorous. It isn't applied in the strictest sense of absolutely eating everything. There are limits implied. So, technically you could say God is omnipotent and omniscient, but with limitations. God can't lie. God doesn't appear to know everything at once, throughout scripture there are obvious limits implied. God can do anything he wants within his own sense of justice, fairness, etc. He can be anywhere he wants, but his position is fixed, he isn't everywhere all at once. He can get to know anything he wants but doesn't know all at once.

The bold is proof positive that you asserted God has limitations and not just strictly in sense of the word.

I do not know the laws of the creator. I do know that if there are limits, they precede whatever they limit. Either your God has infinite power or limited power. Infinite power leads to logical paradoxes. Limited power implies a force that precedes God. So in neither cases can your God be the "ultimate" creator.

You can't simply say things along the lines of, "that's how he operates." That is a cop-out.

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