The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
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04-07-2013, 09:48 PM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
How did Adam and Eve (Eve mostly given the eh hem, chronology) become responsible for their actions since before they acted they had no concept of "Good and Evil"? And why didn't God at least explain the concept of a lie to them before this serpent could deceive them? Of course if they had no concept of it, they may not have understood what he was trying to tell them.

Along with this, why should not have Eve trusted the serpent? After all it was in the garden and everything was theirs. Should she have mistrusted it and why? Had she been lied to before?

"Now I don't want to be sane either, but I'm just saying there may be other delusions and hallucinations worthy of consideration before jumping to an irrational conclusion, that's all."
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04-07-2013, 10:28 PM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
Genesis 1: God creates plants before man

Genesis 2: After resting on the 7th day, God creates man (again) and then creates plants for him

You told a friend that you went to the mall before buying a coat (duh). Then you told another friend after the fact that you bought a coat and then went to the mall (huh?).

You bring nothing new to the table. This is the same old wretched defense of the many contradictions in the bible. As if contradictions were the biggest offenders in your precious man-made book. By the way, exactly which version are we talking about anyway?

Funny that your God writes books in such a manner that it is left wide open for confusion. So confusing in fact, that you religious can't even agree on the subject matter amongst yourselves.

Omnipotence: Can God create a rock he cannot lift?

Omniscience: Does God know when he's going to know something?

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04-07-2013, 10:30 PM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(04-07-2013 02:12 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(04-07-2013 10:07 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  [Image: Free-shipping-2013-Winter-Texture-Thicke...h-font.jpg]


This thread only needs coats. It doesn't deserve any real merit or thought. The OP didn't use any.

I like that coat. But it's got a hood, I thought coats didn't have hoods.

Many coats I've worn over the years have a removable hood.
After looking up several definitions, I really only see that it's a garment with sleeves, that covers the upper body from shoulders to hips. Jackets are referred to as small coats.
I would say as long as the upper body is covered, a coat could be with a hood or without and still be a coat.

On a side note, that coat was only $43 purchased online from the Ukraine.
I haven't bought it yet cause it's summer and I don't even want to think about winter coming again, but damn only $43.

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04-07-2013, 10:36 PM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(04-07-2013 08:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  But not his innate knowledge of good and evil? What is justice, without a sense of right and wrong?

You would have to delve into the meaning of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad and the tree of everlasting life. Basically this is why sin equals death. The angels had been created in God's image and had undoubtedly been around for a great lenght of time before the creation of the earth began. They had gotten to know, from their creator, what was right and wrong, and God's rest was the period of time in which mankind would have matured to the same degree. For this reason God removed man from Eden and the tree of everlasting life 'so that he wouldn't be like "us" and know good and bad. The Jeruselem Bible puts it best: "This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride." The Jerusalem Bible 1966.

(04-07-2013 08:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I wasn't aware of aspect in Hebrew grammar - and my quick check just now states plainly that such a distinction is debatable. Regardless - all translations made in the three languages I can read (English, French, and Latin) use the same word in both instances. In verse 3 light is created. In verses 14-16 light sources are made. What possible reason is there to separate those verses? Does that not introduce the possibility of ambiguity or misinterpretation?

Most everything is debatable, potentially subject to the possibility of ambiguity or misrepresentation.

In verse 1 the heavens, which include the stars, sun and moon, were created.

In verse 3 the Hebrew verb waiyomer (proceeded to say) is imperfect denoting continuous action. Light gradually came to be. The light was visible then on earth. The light (Hebrew ohr) is used meaning the light itself, later in verse 14 the Hebrew maohr (source of light) is visible on the earth. Job 38:4, 9 mention a "swaddling band" in the early stages of creation, it's possible the dust and debris from creation prevented the light and the source of the light from being imedietly visible on earth.

(04-07-2013 08:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Then why is it consistently translated as 'day' and only 'day' (in all of the translations in all of the languages I have read)? And why would the same event be described as taking six plus one days, or just one day period?

It's a good translation. My grandpa's "day" isn't limited to a period consisting of 24 literal hours.

(04-07-2013 08:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  When textual order is to be taken as chronological order, and when it is not, where the text itself does not specify.

Could you clarify exactly what you mean by that?

(04-07-2013 08:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  What passes for evidence to believers in any one faith is in no way better than that held to by believers in any other faith. Given that they cannot all be true...

Agreed. And of course that would apply to evidence of those outside of faith. There are two possible ways to interpret the Bible. Right or wrong. We are all subject to imperfection.
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04-07-2013, 10:47 PM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2013 10:50 PM by The Theist.)
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(04-07-2013 09:48 PM)Fisty_McBeefpunch Wrote:  How did Adam and Eve (Eve mostly given the eh hem, chronology) become responsible for their actions since before they acted they had no concept of "Good and Evil"? And why didn't God at least explain the concept of a lie to them before this serpent could deceive them? Of course if they had no concept of it, they may not have understood what he was trying to tell them.

Along with this, why should not have Eve trusted the serpent? After all it was in the garden and everything was theirs. Should she have mistrusted it and why? Had she been lied to before?

Their creator, who had contact with and had only provided them with everything they knew in a paradise had warned them not to touch or eat of the tree. Eve knew this for she informed the angel using the serpent as a mouthpiece. The serpent, who had done nothing for them, created the lie. Why would she have believed him?
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04-07-2013, 11:03 PM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(04-07-2013 10:36 PM)The Theist Wrote:  You would have to delve into the meaning of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad and the tree of everlasting life. Basically this is why sin equals death. The angels had been created in God's image and had undoubtedly been around for a great lenght of time before the creation of the earth began. They had gotten to know, from their creator, what was right and wrong, and God's rest was the period of time in which mankind would have matured to the same degree. For this reason God removed man from Eden and the tree of everlasting life 'so that he wouldn't be like "us" and know good and bad. The Jeruselem Bible puts it best: "This knowledge is a privilege which God reserves to himself and which man, by sinning, is to lay hands on, 3:5, 22. Hence it does not mean omniscience, which fallen man does not possess; nor is it moral discrimination, for unfallen man already had it and God could not refuse it to a rational being. It is the power of deciding for himself what is good and what is evil and of acting accordingly, a claim to complete moral independence by which man refuses to recognise his status as a created being. The first sin was an attack on God’s sovereignty, a sin of pride." The Jerusalem Bible 1966.

Most everything is debatable, potentially subject to the possibility of ambiguity or misrepresentation.

In verse 1 the heavens, which include the stars, sun and moon, were created.

In verse 3 the Hebrew verb waiyomer (proceeded to say) is imperfect denoting continuous action. Light gradually came to be. The light was visible then on earth. The light (Hebrew ohr) is used meaning the light itself, later in verse 14 the Hebrew maohr (source of light) is visible on the earth. Job 38:4, 9 mention a "swaddling band" in the early stages of creation, it's possible the dust and debris from creation prevented the light and the source of the light from being imedietly visible on earth.

(04-07-2013 08:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Then why is it consistently translated as 'day' and only 'day' (in all of the translations in all of the languages I have read)? And why would the same event be described as taking six plus one days, or just one day period?

It's a good translation. My grandpa's "day" isn't limited to a period consisting of 24 literal hours.

(04-07-2013 08:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  When textual order is to be taken as chronological order, and when it is not, where the text itself does not specify.

Could you clarify exactly what you mean by that?

(04-07-2013 08:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  What passes for evidence to believers in any one faith is in no way better than that held to by believers in any other faith. Given that they cannot all be true...

Agreed. And of course that would apply to evidence of those outside of faith. There are two possible ways to interpret the Bible. Right or wrong. We are all subject to imperfection.

More bullshit from the sock puppeteer / plagiarizer extraordinaire , David Lee, The Theist, Mini Gun Fodder, or whatever moniker he's using this week.

How anyone can repeat that Third Grade crap with a straight face, and expect anyone here not to laugh, is beyond ridiculous.

Nice story he tells, but as Muffsy would say, "needs more dragon".

The Tree of Knowledge was, (as anyone who ever studies the ancient Near East, which this guy has never done ... ever), is the Hebrews attempt to retell the Marduk slaying the Dragon of Chaos myth, from Babylonian mythology. The Tree of Knowledge symbolized the attempt to know BOTH good and evil, (which to them was chaos). There are no angels. They were also cooked up in Babylon, and the history is very well known to scholars, (see Elaine Pagels "The Origins of Satan"). They could not have "been around a long time", as space-time began at the Big Bang, (as far as we know). More meaningless drivel, from a literalist fundie.

(04-07-2013 10:36 PM)The Theist Wrote:  Most everything is debatable, potentially subject to the possibility of ambiguity or misrepresentation.

And yet this "theist" has it all figured out, even though he can't even spell Jerusalem correctly, (as well as many others, yet we are to think he knows something no one else does...) Weeping

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-07-2013, 11:08 PM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(04-07-2013 10:47 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(04-07-2013 09:48 PM)Fisty_McBeefpunch Wrote:  How did Adam and Eve (Eve mostly given the eh hem, chronology) become responsible for their actions since before they acted they had no concept of "Good and Evil"? And why didn't God at least explain the concept of a lie to them before this serpent could deceive them? Of course if they had no concept of it, they may not have understood what he was trying to tell them.

Along with this, why should not have Eve trusted the serpent? After all it was in the garden and everything was theirs. Should she have mistrusted it and why? Had she been lied to before?

Their creator, who had contact with and had only provided them with everything they knew in a paradise had warned them not to touch or eat of the tree. Eve knew this for she informed the angel using the serpent as a mouthpiece. The serpent, who had done nothing for them, created the lie. Why would she have believed him?

Of course she knew what she was told, and she was being truthful to the serpent, but how did she know she was being lied to if she had no idea what it meant. She only knew "good and evil" afterward. Was she warned about a serpent that may tell her something that wasn't true? Were they warned that Satan had been cast out of heaven and fell to earth and would attempt to ruin their life in the garden? If not, why?

"Now I don't want to be sane either, but I'm just saying there may be other delusions and hallucinations worthy of consideration before jumping to an irrational conclusion, that's all."
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04-07-2013, 11:33 PM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(04-07-2013 11:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The Tree of Knowledge was, (as anyone who ever studies the ancient Near East, which this guy has never done ... ever), is the Hebrews attempt to retell the Marduk slaying the Dragon of Chaos myth, from Babylonian mythology. The Tree of Knowledge symbolized the attempt to know BOTH good and evil, (which to them was chaos). There are no angels. They were also cooked up in Babylon, and the history is very well known to scholars, (see Elaine Pagels "The Origins of Satan"). They could not have "been around a long time", as space-time began at the Big Bang, (as far as we know). More meaningless drivel, from a literalist fundie.

Still clinging to your limited and vague sort of quasi school of destructive criticism, Ball-less?

Speaking of Murduk - uh, you mean Marduk? A fragment foun North of the temple of Marduk says this: "The building of this temple offended the gods. In a night they threw down what had been built. They scattered them abroad, and made strange their speech. The progress they impeded." Bible And Spade, by S.L. Caiger, 1938, p. 29 It wouldn't take a particularly gifted individual much effort to consider the possibility that events taken place in the Biblical Erech (Uruk) could have influenced mythology of the flood and the Tower of Babel, provided the individual wasn't desperate to cling to higher criticism to justify his world view and fucked the timing all up.

I don't know, Dumbo, you might use those formidable ears for something other than a hat rack. Surely you are not trying to convince these people you are original.
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04-07-2013, 11:33 PM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(04-07-2013 09:48 PM)Fisty_McBeefpunch Wrote:  How did Adam and Eve (Eve mostly given the eh hem, chronology) become responsible for their actions since before they acted they had no concept of "Good and Evil"? And why didn't God at least explain the concept of a lie to them before this serpent could deceive them? Of course if they had no concept of it, they may not have understood what he was trying to tell them.

Along with this, why should not have Eve trusted the serpent? After all it was in the garden and everything was theirs. Should she have mistrusted it and why? Had she been lied to before?

When it comes to the idea of creating a human male & human female, I've often wondered how you would go about doing that ?

First off, humans are evolutionary creatures that have their DNA as a result of all those ancestors that came before them. And the only way placental mammals like us are even here now is because millions of years ago, one of our distant relatives used the DNA from a virus.

About 100,000 elements in a humans genome come from viruses.
We all have about 20,000 protein coating genes and that takes up about 1.2%
The DNA we got from viruses take up about 8-9%
One could say that we are more virus than human if one were inclined.

So what would a created human look like without all that viral DNA ?
It couldn't have children, that's certain.
I won't even touch on all the parts of our genome that came from our distant animal & far distant plant ancestors.

Maybe adam & eve were made of wood like Pinocchio.
That to me "wood" actually be easier to do with all the magical mumbo jumbo.




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04-07-2013, 11:44 PM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(04-07-2013 11:33 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(04-07-2013 11:03 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The Tree of Knowledge was, (as anyone who ever studies the ancient Near East, which this guy has never done ... ever), is the Hebrews attempt to retell the Marduk slaying the Dragon of Chaos myth, from Babylonian mythology. The Tree of Knowledge symbolized the attempt to know BOTH good and evil, (which to them was chaos). There are no angels. They were also cooked up in Babylon, and the history is very well known to scholars, (see Elaine Pagels "The Origins of Satan"). They could not have "been around a long time", as space-time began at the Big Bang, (as far as we know). More meaningless drivel, from a literalist fundie.

Still clinging to your limited and vague sort of quasi school of destructive criticism, Ball-less?

Speaking of Murduk - uh, you mean Marduk? A fragment foun North of the temple of Marduk says this: "The building of this temple offended the gods. In a night they threw down what had been built. They scattered them abroad, and made strange their speech. The progress they impeded." Bible And Spade, by S.L. Caiger, 1938, p. 29 It wouldn't take a particularly gifted individual much effort to consider the possibility that events taken place in the Biblical Erech (Uruk) could have influenced mythology of the flood and the Tower of Babel, provided the individual wasn't desperate to cling to higher criticism to justify his world view and fucked the timing all up.

I don't know, Dumbo, you might use those formidable ears for something other than a hat rack. Surely you are not trying to convince these people you are original.

I wrote "Marduk", DavidTheConflictedGayTheist.
I can't help it if you are too drunk or too drugged up to read.

So someone who can't even spell "Jerusalem" actually thinks we are to buy the nonsense that he knows anything about Hebrew verbs. McClellan already told you how your are wrong about your JW bs of the verb interpretation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waw-consecutive ,
and in the first line he wrote in response to your plagiarized thread.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...r-1?page=2

I do realize you know nothing about how the Bible was constructed, and you just provided of proof of that. Thank you. Thanks also for your irrelevant quote. More proof you have no clue what you are even talking about.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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