The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
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06-07-2013, 07:53 AM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(06-07-2013 06:29 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  "The serpent didn't actually speak, Satan spoke through the serpent. Making it look as though the serpent were speaking. " What? Where are you drawing this from?

Quote:Genesis 3
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
3 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Nope says the serpent spoke not satan talked through the snake. Lets try another translation.

Quote:Genesis 3
American Standard Version (ASV)
3 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which Jehovah God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of any tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat:

3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

Hmm no still says the serpent spoke not Satan threw his voice...

Quote:Genesis 3
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any wild animal which Adonai, God, had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You are not to eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat from the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3 but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden God said, ‘You are neither to eat from it nor touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “It is not true that you will surely die; 5 because God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Well damn still says the serpent spoke so I guess he is getting it from the Authorized Anal Version that christians use when debating.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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06-07-2013, 08:23 AM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(06-07-2013 07:53 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well damn still says the serpent spoke so I guess he is getting it from the Authorized Anal Version that christians use when debating.

Usually they use the Ancient Hebrew (as far as there can be said to be one such version).

It's a better argument to be able to go 'back to the original', but of course, it's also wonderfully convenient that virtually no one can argue it (having no knowledge of the language). Alas, the best I can do is vulgate Latin.

I do have to question the translations, though. If they're all wrong, that's a little funny...

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06-07-2013, 08:26 AM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(06-07-2013 08:23 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(06-07-2013 07:53 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well damn still says the serpent spoke so I guess he is getting it from the Authorized Anal Version that christians use when debating.

Usually they use the Ancient Hebrew (as far as there can be said to be one such version).

It's a better argument to be able to go 'back to the original', but of course, it's also wonderfully convenient that virtually no one can argue it (having no knowledge of the language). Alas, the best I can do is vulgate Latin.

I do have to question the translations, though. If they're all wrong, that's a little funny...

I don't speak any dead languages so I am reliant on translations but to hedge my bets I tend to look at 3 or more since they do vary a bit. In this however every version say nearly the same thing and contextually it is identical.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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06-07-2013, 08:38 AM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
Forget all these other arguments. I just trapped The Theist in his own explanation of God.

He admitted to God having limitations. You can only have limitations if you are bound by some outside force. If there is a force that binds God, something else existed before God. Therefore, he cannot be the ultimate creator. At most, he is the creator of this universe, but exists within another universe.

“We are all connected; To each other, biologically. To the earth, chemically. To the rest of the universe atomically.”

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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06-07-2013, 02:20 PM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
The theist just throws interpretations around assumptions with blustery authority hoping no one will look behind the curtain. It funny how some theists will dress an assumption like a fact and parade it around like some checkmate whilst ignoring scientific evidence.
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07-07-2013, 08:28 AM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(05-07-2013 09:52 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  I'm sorry, but that is far too convenient of an explanation and pretty nonsensical. Why does the 7th day continue? Did god have 6 days then all of a sudden make the 7th day eternal? What was the need for that? Why couldn't it be 1 day and then make that eternal so that we are perpetually in day 1. There's no logic there.

You've got to get the 24 hour day out of your head. I've shown you where the word day is used for any period of time consisting of a few hours to infinity in the Hebrew as well as the English. It doesn't have to be a 24 hour period.

The seventh day isn't eternal it has only been going on for thousands of years. It is the time in which God had devoted for man to mature, and to fulfill his purpose of filling the Earth and subduing it. Since Adam sinned and we all inherited that sin we can't enter into that day until that is all sorted out. (Psalm 95:11 / Hebrews 4:1-10)

(05-07-2013 09:52 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  I am allowing for it. I accepted your premise of the second chapter being a topical explanation. But even in a topical explanation, it must follow the events of the subject that it is describing. The events in Genesis 1 clearly states plants were created before man. In Genesis 2, it clearly states that man was created then plants thereafter.

But the events aren't given in chronological order in the second account.

(05-07-2013 09:52 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  Back to your analogy:

You told a friend that you are going to the mall to buy a coat. Then you told another friend after the fact that you bought a coat and then went to the mall.

^^that is how Genesis 1 and 2 are telling it.

I didn't say "then" went to the mall.

(05-07-2013 09:52 AM)NoahsFarce Wrote:  So if God has limitations, how could he possibly be the creator of all? If he is limited in his power, then he is bound by some type of natural forces. This means he exists in a realm that precedes him. A creator of everything cannot logically have limitations. Conversely, a being without limitations is illogical. Thus we come to a paradox.

How do you know the laws of a creator of this universe which itself has laws and limitations? Besides, what I said was that there are limits to how the words omnipotent and omniscient should be applied which are often overlooked by the religous. God can't lie, for example, isn't a limitation of God, as such, it is him keeping within his own sense of justice. If he transcended that for the sake of being all powerful his sense of justice would be diminished. He could lie or he could wave a staff and make it true but that doesn't adhere to his justice, which his creation was based upon.
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07-07-2013, 08:32 AM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(06-07-2013 02:20 PM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  The theist just throws interpretations around assumptions with blustery authority hoping no one will look behind the curtain. It funny how some theists will dress an assumption like a fact and parade it around like some checkmate whilst ignoring scientific evidence.

I sometimes think that atheist who constantly say shit like this are brainwashed into thinking, no matter what, that the Bible is a threat to science. Some folks don't think as much as they think they do. They will take it to either extreme. "You made that up to apease science!" or "You ignore scientific evidence!"

I don't think that we have approached, anywhere in this thread, any "scientific evidence" but if you feel that I'm ignoring it why not present it so that I know what it might be?
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07-07-2013, 08:44 AM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(06-07-2013 08:26 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I don't speak any dead languages so I am reliant on translations but to hedge my bets I tend to look at 3 or more since they do vary a bit. In this however every version say nearly the same thing and contextually it is identical.

Am I to understand that you're interpretation of the account literally has the serpent speaking on his own behalf? Where does the angel later known as Satan fit into it?

Who is said to be a father of the lie? Who is the one who deceived Eve? Was the serpent literally cursed or was it a metaphorical application to Satan having used the serpent? Did the serpent have four legs before this event?

Consider Balaam's ass. At Numbers 22:22-31 it seems the ass is talking, but it's an angel. Later, at 2 Peter 2:16 this is confirmed when Peter calls the ass a voiceless beast.
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07-07-2013, 09:07 AM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2013 09:11 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(07-07-2013 08:28 AM)The Theist Wrote:  But the events aren't given in chronological order in the second account.

Bunch of crap, as usual. There is no textual basis to make that statement. Just made up nonsense. The Hebrew writers would have no way of knowing what happened billions of years before, and had no notion of it.
NEITHER account says anything about being in "chronological order" or not being in order. He just makes up shit because basically he has not a clue what he's talking about.
He has no education in the subject. He's suffering from Dunning-Krueger syndrome.
He would flunk out of any academic program on the ancient Near East.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%...ger_effect

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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07-07-2013, 09:08 AM
RE: The Desparation Of (A)theism Exemplified
(06-07-2013 08:23 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I do have to question the translations, though. If they're all wrong, that's a little funny...

Why not make use of a Hebrew / Greek Interlinear Bible, or search online. But really, I've found a lot of times, it isn't all the translations that are wrong, it's the interpretation. A skeptic will think the Bible is myth, and has talking snakes and donkeys, when it is pretty obvious that that isn't being implied.

Sure, in a case like this, the actual text will say the "she ass SAID" or the "serpent SAID" but it is obvious that this isn't actually the case. Like, if I said that here Walter will make an announcement you know what I mean.



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