The Difference Between Atheist And Agnostic
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26-11-2017, 09:58 AM
RE: The Difference Between Atheist And Agnostic
OK, You win. I'm done here. You guys, and only you, get to define the meaning of the term "atheism" within your forum. No one else has any authority over the definition of terms, only you. Most of the posters here judging from the likes to your responses don't get my point of view at all. Perhaps I haven't explained my position very well, but I did put in some effort. I think my ideas are coherent if a little effort is put into comprehending them. I just get the impression that no matter how I try to explain my point of view, the responses are going to come back with the subtle, and not so subtle, implication that I'm wrong, incoherent, ignorant, or disingenuous.

I find it interesting that boh theists and people who proudly wear the atheist label have accused me of "pretending to be an agnostic".

You win. I give up. Attempting discussion here hasn't been a very pleasant experience. I'll continue listening to Seth's show but I'm done with the forum.
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26-11-2017, 10:04 AM (This post was last modified: 26-11-2017 12:31 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Difference Between Atheist And Agnostic
Poor baby.

No one says we alone get to define anything.
Stanford doesn't get to tell me what I think.
People who claim a 50/50 probability ought to at least be able to define what it is they are talking about.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein It is objectively immoral to kill innocent babies. Please stick to the guilty babies.
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26-11-2017, 10:26 AM (This post was last modified: 26-11-2017 11:04 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: The Difference Between Atheist And Agnostic
(26-11-2017 09:58 AM)srobertanv Wrote:  Most of the posters here judging from the likes to your responses don't get my point of view at all
Who should a dislike point towards not getting your point? Did you think who gets your point must like your point, and who doesnt like your point didnt get it? Seems to me that you didnt even think about the possibility that you could be wrong (see below).
Besides, whats so bad about getting your point, but just not agreeing with you?
What about the points of the people who disagreed with you? Did you get them?

(26-11-2017 09:58 AM)srobertanv Wrote:  implication that I'm wrong,

You didnt expect, or were prepared, to be told that you are (possibly) wrong? Consider

You engaged with people being agressive, rather than with people like me, then you complain about being treated too harsh?

Check your post where you acknowledged that some people make a distinction between agnostic being a claim of knowledge and atheist of being a claim of belief. You considered that to be an opinion.
I, then, explained (along with DLJ) to you why you were (most probably) wrong. Because your definition of belief and knowledge leads to different people *knowing* things that stand in contradiction, which makes either the concept of "knowing" meaningless or (in excess of belief, in essence downgrading knowledge to belief. Why would we need two different words for the same tihng?) your argument flawed.
You however didnt engage me or my argument, or DLJ fo rthat matter. You kept going...i am assuming because you "knew" you were right and didnt consider to change your opinion, just the opinion of everybody else here, hence your feeling of being mistreated when being told you were worng.
You werent pissed because Bucky attacked you, you were pissed because you were told to be wrong.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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26-11-2017, 11:11 AM (This post was last modified: 26-11-2017 11:15 AM by Stevil.)
RE: The Difference Between Atheist And Agnostic
(26-11-2017 07:49 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(25-11-2017 01:12 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Agnostic is just a flavour of atheism.

I have to disagree with this. As a lifelong atheist, I've never once said that I don't know if God or gods exist. They don't. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

If you are an atheist, you aren't automatically also an agnostic. Just like a piece of fruit isn't automatically also a banana.
Many atheists are agnostic also, but other atheists are gnostic. It seems that you happen to be a gnostic atheist, which means you hold a belief that gods don't exist.

(26-11-2017 07:49 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
Quote:Don't confuse things by assuming that Atheist means you have a believe that gods don't exist. That is only a small subset of atheists.

Again I disagree. There is no such thing as a small "subset" of atheists. You're either an atheist or you're not. Simple dichotomy. No degrees involved.
I'm an atheist and I don't hold a belief that gods don't exist. I'm not a 7 on the Dawkins scale, I'm not a strong atheist. How can I hold a belief in the existence or non existence of something that is not sufficiently defined to evaluate?

It's like saying that a small subset of atheists have white hair while there are the majority of atheists who have non white hair. We can easily be put into subgroups when you look at other characteristics that don't negate our atheist disbelief. Agnostic pertains to knowledge rather than belief so whether we are agnostic or gnostic it doesn't change the fact that we are also atheist.
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26-11-2017, 11:15 AM
RE: The Difference Between Atheist And Agnostic
(26-11-2017 09:58 AM)srobertanv Wrote:  OK, You win. I'm done here. You guys, and only you, get to define the meaning of the term "atheism" within your forum. No one else has any authority over the definition of terms, only you. Most of the posters here judging from the likes to your responses don't get my point of view at all. Perhaps I haven't explained my position very well, but I did put in some effort. I think my ideas are coherent if a little effort is put into comprehending them. I just get the impression that no matter how I try to explain my point of view, the responses are going to come back with the subtle, and not so subtle, implication that I'm wrong, incoherent, ignorant, or disingenuous.

I find it interesting that boh theists and people who proudly wear the atheist label have accused me of "pretending to be an agnostic".

You win. I give up. Attempting discussion here hasn't been a very pleasant experience. I'll continue listening to Seth's show but I'm done with the forum.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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26-11-2017, 11:28 AM
RE: The Difference Between Atheist And Agnostic
(26-11-2017 09:58 AM)srobertanv Wrote:  OK, You win. I'm done here. You guys, and only you, get to define the meaning of the term "atheism" within your forum. No one else has any authority over the definition of terms, only you. Most of the posters here judging from the likes to your responses don't get my point of view at all.

I understand your point of view, I just don't agree with it. Your definitions are not "wrong", just less useful in my opinion for capturing the way people think and form beliefs.

Quote:Perhaps I haven't explained my position very well, but I did put in some effort. I think my ideas are coherent if a little effort is put into comprehending them. I just get the impression that no matter how I try to explain my point of view, the responses are going to come back with the subtle, and not so subtle, implication that I'm wrong, incoherent, ignorant, or disingenuous.

As opposed to your not so subtle implication that we are lazy, arrogant, or ignorant because we don't accept your view as the one and only True Definition™?

Quote:You win. I give up. Attempting discussion here hasn't been a very pleasant experience. I'll continue listening to Seth's show but I'm done with the forum.

We do not win but you do lose. Why is it so critical that we accept your usage of atheist vs agnostic? We agree that there is no good reason to believe that a god exists. Most people here will also agree that they don't claim knowledge of there being no god (except for specific definitions). Some express that as "agnostic atheist", some as "agnostic", and some as "igtheist" because language is slippery and different usages appeal to differing experiences and priorities.

It is important that you understand how your interlocutor is using the terms; it isn't important that everybody agree that your definition is the only correct one.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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27-11-2017, 02:19 AM
RE: The Difference Between Atheist And Agnostic
I'm sure we all understand the literal differences between atheist and agnostic. Atheism tackles the question of belief, agnostic the question of knowledge. The problem is, I don't believe the general public understands this distinction. Unless you are somewhat concerned with religion, in any sense, you probably are not too stressed about these definitions and what the differences mean "atheists" or "agnostics" are describing their beliefs, or lack thereof, about a creator.

Since agnostic/gnostic and atheist/theist tackle different areas of the concept of god, knowledge and belief, respectively, the most proper way to describe yourself, I think, are in these ways:

Agnostic atheist
Gnostic atheist
Agnostic theist
Gnostic theist
...
and so on.

However, if you tell someone you're an agnostic atheist, most might be a bit confused, as if you just said you were a Christian Muslim. People's lack of awareness about the actual definitions of these terms leads many to say, with more simplicity, "I'm an atheist," or, "I'm an agnostic."

Okay, with all that being said, from here on out I'll be using the "common usage" definitions of agnostic and atheist for the sake of convenience, unless I state otherwise.

I do think many agnostics are hesitant to adopt the term atheist in identifying themselves because of some sort of cowardice. It's much easier to tell someone they're wrong if they're saying, "I do not believe god exists!" versus someone sort of just, "Hey, I don't really know. No one does." I don't think this cowardice describes most agnostics, but certainly some. I do think that for most agnostics, the term agnostic simply describes their position more accurately. They are truly just unsure one way or the other and simply choose the term agnostic to attempt to accurately convey that.

I do think that most people who are atheists tend to be a bit more steadfast about their lack of belief. People I know who are agnostics don't really talk about god much, whereas many atheists I know are ready and willing to discuss the issue. This, of course, is purely anecdotal. While I can understand the tendency to want to get people to commit to using the term "atheist," I ultimately don't think it's all that important. Religion is slowly dying away. Most Christians in 2017 would be considered immoral sinners in 1950 and would be absolute heathens in the middle ages. The progress is slow, but there. Most Christians today, by the standards of their own book, are not Christians at all.

The are a watered down, easy to swallow, ready made, microwavable, social media friendly version of their predecessors. Atheist, agnostic, agnostic deist, gnostic pantheist... who gives a shit?

Religion is going away.
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27-11-2017, 02:36 AM
RE: The Difference Between Atheist And Agnostic
(26-11-2017 09:58 AM)srobertanv Wrote:  OK, You win. I'm done here. You guys, and only you, get to define the meaning of the term "atheism" within your forum. No one else has any authority over the definition of terms, only you. Most of the posters here judging from the likes to your responses don't get my point of view at all. Perhaps I haven't explained my position very well, but I did put in some effort. I think my ideas are coherent if a little effort is put into comprehending them. I just get the impression that no matter how I try to explain my point of view, the responses are going to come back with the subtle, and not so subtle, implication that I'm wrong, incoherent, ignorant, or disingenuous.

I find it interesting that boh theists and people who proudly wear the atheist label have accused me of "pretending to be an agnostic".

You win. I give up. Attempting discussion here hasn't been a very pleasant experience. I'll continue listening to Seth's show but I'm done with the forum.

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience.

We're not a hive mind or a club here though, and no one gets to speak "for the forum" on matters of opinion. Personally I couldn't care less how people define their words as long as they are consistent about it.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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16-01-2018, 09:53 AM
RE: The Difference Between Atheist And Agnostic
I've seen plenty of agnostics say that they're agnostic because "we can't know there's no God". That in itself displays a misunderstanding of atheism.
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16-01-2018, 11:30 AM
RE: The Difference Between Atheist And Agnostic
(16-01-2018 09:53 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  I've seen plenty of agnostics say that they're agnostic because "we can't know there's no God". That in itself displays a misunderstanding of atheism.

Theists gerrymandered the definitions.
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