The Ecumenical Councils and Creeds and the Trinity
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
08-03-2013, 02:54 AM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2013 03:19 AM by Buddy Christ.)
The Ecumenical Councils and Creeds and the Trinity
Exciting topic, right? Meetings, documents, and the chick from the Matrix. Well I was going to make a thread on the difference between the Christian denominations and my head almost exploded during research. There really is no good comparison source because no one really knows the difference between most of them in the first place. It seems like any minor dispute with your religion is reason enough to branch off and start a new denomination. Agree with every single belief held by your current church but don't think babies should be baptized? NEW DENOMINATION! Don't like how your church allows women to preach? NEW DENOMINATION! Want to switch the brand of crackers being handed out for Christ's body? NEW DENOMINATION!

So I decided to go with something less confusing. The first seven Ecumenical Councils, the four Ecumenical Creeds, and the confusion of the Holy Trinity.

Two things: I understand Ecumenical to mean encapsulating all off Christianity - pertaining to the whole rather than differing between the denominations. And second, my sources are mainly wikipedia (I'm not aiming for a Pulitzer here).

In 325, the First Council of Nicaea was held, spearheaded by Constantine, with the purpose of coming to a universal consensus regarding just what the hell was meant by "the father, the son, and the holy spirit." People were just as confused then as we are today about the seemingly interchangeable and ambiguous use of the terms God (father), Jesus (son), Holy Spirit. They also officially put a date on when to celebrate Easter (there was a whole controversy leading up to this). Out of the council came the most widely used official creed declaring the beliefs of the Christian faith.

Original Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.

[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]

It honestly didn't really clear anything up. It stated that they believed in all three things... except that all three separate things were actually one thing (they shared an essence). It also threatened that if you claimed that perhaps God didn't exist at one point or that Jesus wasn't a part of God, you would be condemned by the church. From this official declaration, several disagreements arose and a handful of denominations sprouted. Constantinople also prepared 50 "official" Bibles and had them distributed.



56 years later in 381, they reconvened at the First Council of Constantinople to fix some of the wording of the original Nicaea Creed and to confirm the Christian view as to the nature of the mind, body, and soul of Jesus. Some argued that he inhabited a human body and had a human mind, but had a divine soul (or switch up which parts were human, which were divine, and then realize that grown adults are arguing about what color the Emperor's new clothes were). The official belief formed at this council was that Jesus had a human body and a divine mind and soul. The council also decreed that Constantine now had precedence over all churches with the exception of Rome.

Here's the new wording they added to the Nicaea Creed (additions in bold):

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

It just seems like they wanted to spruce some things up to make it more fancy. Why did they feel the need to add "and was buried"? He wasn't even buried, he was put in a tomb.



Theodosius II gathered the Council of Ephesus in 431, with the reason being again to clear up a few disputes and controversies becoming popular. Mainly, Theodosius wanted to condemn the popular belief in Nestorianism , the belief that Jesus was actually a schizo-type union of human and god, explaining his humanly behaviors. Theo restated the emphasis that the Virgin Mary was the mother of God (the belief was declining) and that Jesus was pure god. Then Theo actually made it "unlawful for any man to bring forward, or to write, or to compose a different Faith as a rival to that established by the holy Fathers assembled with the Holy Ghost in Nicæa." That's right. He made it illegal to challenge the Christian faith, since the Council of Nicaea was clearly filled with the Holy Spirit when they wrote their creed. More disagreements, more denominations.



Then at the Council of Chalcedon (451), the council discarded the idea decreed in the previous council about Jesus being pure god, and decreed the new position, that Jesus was in fact human and god, but fused as one being, called the Hypostatic Union (both natures were one being in "hypostasis"). This council also claimed that it was the true fourth ecumenical council, since the council before it (The Second Council of Ephesus) was wrought with scandal and canon legalities, referred to as the Robber Council.

The Council of Chalcedon created the Calcedonian Creed (also known as the Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union):

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood;
truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body;
consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood;
in all things like unto us, without sin;
begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood;
one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably;
the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God (μονογενῆ Θεὸν), the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ;
as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

Still trying to clear up the nature of God and still succeeding in making it that much more obscure.



At the Second Council of Constantinople (553), the battle between those who believed Jesus was one godly nature and the people who believed him part human has gotten so bad that Eastern and Western churches formed their own beliefs and went their separate ways. The council was composed of Eastern bishops who condemned the idea that Jesus was dual-natured. Milan and other major cities broke off communion with Rome. This is a several hundred year argument over the dumbest details. More separation, more denominations.



The Third Council of Constantinople (680) came together to discard the beliefs of the previous council in favor of the new craze, Monothelitism, which is, "ok fine, Jesus was human AND god... but he only had ONE will. He wasn't affected by human nature." Another hundred years, the top religious men are still arguing about something with the importance of "do girls have cooties?"



Finally, the Second Council of Nicaea (787) was gathered by Emperor Constantine V. They finally have another emperor named Constantine and they stop calling it the Council of Constantinople? He claimed that images of Jesus misrepresented him and promoted the previously suppressed act of honoring idols and icons, like Mary and the saints.



In between each "official" councils, there were unrecognized and church-dismissed councils that outlined the appropriate behavior and disciplinary measures of the clergy, along with approving and discarding local canons.



The Apostles' Creed is supposedly written by the apostles. The church claims that it has been around since the time of the apostles, but it didn't appear in writing until a council in Milan wrote to the Pope saying, "Let them give credit to the Creed of the Apostles, which the Roman Church has always kept and preserved undefiled."

It goes as follows:

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.

The fourth and longest creed is the Athanasian Creed, called such because it was originally attributed to Athanasius of Alexandra - which scholars in the 17th century determined to be false, since it was in the wrong language and addressed concerns that occurred after his death. It does absolutely nothing but confound in its attempt to clarify.

Observe:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.



The lesson from all this? From its conception, the church has been scattered, divided, and filled with petty arguing over insignificant issues (did Jesus REALLY wear sandals!?!?!). So if you don't understand the nature of the Trinity, relax. No one has ever understood it.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Buddy Christ's post
08-03-2013, 04:45 AM
RE: The Ecumenical Councils and Creeds and the Trinity
(08-03-2013 02:54 AM)Buddy Christ Wrote:  Exciting topic, right? Meetings, documents, and the chick from the Matrix. Well I was going to make a thread on the difference between the Christian denominations and my head almost exploded during research. There really is no good comparison source because no one really knows the difference between most of them in the first place. It seems like any minor dispute with your religion is reason enough to branch off and start a new denomination. Agree with every single belief held by your current church but don't think babies should be baptized? NEW DENOMINATION! Don't like how your church allows women to preach? NEW DENOMINATION! Want to switch the brand of crackers being handed out for Christ's body? NEW DENOMINATION!

So I decided to go with something less confusing. The first seven Ecumenical Councils, the four Ecumenical Creeds, and the confusion of the Holy Trinity.

Two things: I understand Ecumenical to mean encapsulating all off Christianity - pertaining to the whole rather than differing between the denominations. And second, my sources are mainly wikipedia (I'm not aiming for a Pulitzer here).

In 325, the First Council of Nicaea was held, spearheaded by Constantine, with the purpose of coming to a universal consensus regarding just what the hell was meant by "the father, the son, and the holy spirit." People were just as confused then as we are today about the seemingly interchangeable and ambiguous use of the terms God (father), Jesus (son), Holy Spirit. They also officially put a date on when to celebrate Easter (there was a whole controversy leading up to this). Out of the council came the most widely used official creed declaring the beliefs of the Christian faith.

Original Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.

[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]

It honestly didn't really clear anything up. It stated that they believed in all three things... except that all three separate things were actually one thing (they shared an essence). It also threatened that if you claimed that perhaps God didn't exist at one point or that Jesus wasn't a part of God, you would be condemned by the church. From this official declaration, several disagreements arose and a handful of denominations sprouted. Constantinople also prepared 50 "official" Bibles and had them distributed.



56 years later in 381, they reconvened at the First Council of Constantinople to fix some of the wording of the original Nicaea Creed and to confirm the Christian view as to the nature of the mind, body, and soul of Jesus. Some argued that he inhabited a human body and had a human mind, but had a divine soul (or switch up which parts were human, which were divine, and then realize that grown adults are arguing about what color the Emperor's new clothes were). The official belief formed at this council was that Jesus had a human body and a divine mind and soul. The council also decreed that Constantine now had precedence over all churches with the exception of Rome.

Here's the new wording they added to the Nicaea Creed (additions in bold):

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.
In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

It just seems like they wanted to spruce some things up to make it more fancy. Why did they feel the need to add "and was buried"? He wasn't even buried, he was put in a tomb.



Theodosius II gathered the Council of Ephesus in 431, with the reason being again to clear up a few disputes and controversies becoming popular. Mainly, Theodosius wanted to condemn the popular belief in Nestorianism , the belief that Jesus was actually a schizo-type union of human and god, explaining his humanly behaviors. Theo restated the emphasis that the Virgin Mary was the mother of God (the belief was declining) and that Jesus was pure god. Then Theo actually made it "unlawful for any man to bring forward, or to write, or to compose a different Faith as a rival to that established by the holy Fathers assembled with the Holy Ghost in Nicæa." That's right. He made it illegal to challenge the Christian faith, since the Council of Nicaea was clearly filled with the Holy Spirit when they wrote their creed. More disagreements, more denominations.



Then at the Council of Chalcedon (451), the council discarded the idea decreed in the previous council about Jesus being pure god, and decreed the new position, that Jesus was in fact human and god, but fused as one being, called the Hypostatic Union (both natures were one being in "hypostasis"). This council also claimed that it was the true fourth ecumenical council, since the council before it (The Second Council of Ephesus) was wrought with scandal and canon legalities, referred to as the Robber Council.

The Council of Chalcedon created the Calcedonian Creed (also known as the Doctrine of the Hypostatic Union):

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood;
truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body;
consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood;
in all things like unto us, without sin;
begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood;
one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably;
the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten God (μονογενῆ Θεὸν), the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ;
as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

Still trying to clear up the nature of God and still succeeding in making it that much more obscure.



At the Second Council of Constantinople (553), the battle between those who believed Jesus was one godly nature and the people who believed him part human has gotten so bad that Eastern and Western churches formed their own beliefs and went their separate ways. The council was composed of Eastern bishops who condemned the idea that Jesus was dual-natured. Milan and other major cities broke off communion with Rome. This is a several hundred year argument over the dumbest details. More separation, more denominations.



The Third Council of Constantinople (680) came together to discard the beliefs of the previous council in favor of the new craze, Monothelitism, which is, "ok fine, Jesus was human AND god... but he only had ONE will. He wasn't affected by human nature." Another hundred years, the top religious men are still arguing about something with the importance of "do girls have cooties?"



Finally, the Second Council of Nicaea (787) was gathered by Emperor Constantine V. They finally have another emperor named Constantine and they stop calling it the Council of Constantinople? He claimed that images of Jesus misrepresented him and promoted the previously suppressed act of honoring idols and icons, like Mary and the saints.



In between each "official" councils, there were unrecognized and church-dismissed councils that outlined the appropriate behavior and disciplinary measures of the clergy, along with approving and discarding local canons.



The Apostles' Creed is supposedly written by the apostles. The church claims that it has been around since the time of the apostles, but it didn't appear in writing until a council in Milan wrote to the Pope saying, "Let them give credit to the Creed of the Apostles, which the Roman Church has always kept and preserved undefiled."

It goes as follows:

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting. Amen.

The fourth and longest creed is the Athanasian Creed, called such because it was originally attributed to Athanasius of Alexandra - which scholars in the 17th century determined to be false, since it was in the wrong language and addressed concerns that occurred after his death. It does absolutely nothing but confound in its attempt to clarify.

Observe:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.



The lesson from all this? From its conception, the church has been scattered, divided, and filled with petty arguing over insignificant issues (did Jesus REALLY wear sandals!?!?!). So if you don't understand the nature of the Trinity, relax. No one has ever understood it.
Jesus! This is longer than some of Mark Fulton's threads! Good topic though! I'm looking forward to proper read soon (when I'm not dog tired).
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2013, 08:16 AM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2013 10:17 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Ecumenical Councils and Creeds and the Trinity
Aquinas said that if anyone said they understood the trinity, they were deluding themself. He said even he didn't. He made up some junk, but it's essentially meaningLESS. It's-self contradictory, in every way. On some level, the councils knew that. They tried to get around it, but never really came to grips with it.
It's called the "filioque procedit" argument, (in Latin)..how the son "preceeds" from the Father. Just bunk. http://www.allsaintscenterfortheology.or...ather.html

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2013, 07:05 PM (This post was last modified: 08-03-2013 07:16 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: The Ecumenical Councils and Creeds and the Trinity
Hey ...thanks for doing this. I learned a lot. Interesting how Constantinople was in charge in the 4th century (not Rome, like the Vatican claims.) I'll just add a few weeny points...and a few links for anyone interested....

In 313 CE, the Emperor Constantine (reigned from 306–337 CE) reversed the government’s policy of hostility to Christianity in his Edict of Milan. This turned out to be a momentous occurrence in world history. Constantine was a highly superstitious man and a Mithraic (in 304 CE Mithras had been declared Protector of the Roman Empire). He probably respected all religious cults, and interestingly, saw no contradiction in championing both Mithraism and Christianity. He held the title “Pontifex Maximus,” high priest of the cult of the state, (http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a104.htm) for himself. This title was to be later taken by the Popery.


What made Constantine embrace Christianity? His mother was a Christian. The church was springing up strongly. It was wide reaching and well organized, as it had modeled its hierarchy on Roman (not Jewish!) principles. It had a clerical class, and a chain of command that was competent at controlling conflicts. The bishops had a level of legal autonomy allowing
them to interpret law. The Christians accepted people from all parts of the empire. Unlike many Jews, they respected Roman rule. All this was attractive to Constantine because he wanted stability. In the preceding decades civil wars and external enemies had challenged the Pax Romana. He was overseeing a massive, disparate empire, so the social cohesion made possible by a universal monotheism was appealing. He knew the people were easier to control if they all
shared the same religion.


His government embraced Christians as allies. In 320 CE he declared himself a Christian and fashioned himself as a priest-king who was the thirteenth apostle of Jesus. (http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/arc/constant...ntine.html). Christianity was given a colossal leg up by becoming the official religion of the empire. The new faith went to bed with
the political masters of the Western world and the empire had a universal religion to unite most of its people. It was a marriage of convenience that suited both parties. It was due to this symbiotic connection that Christianity was
established and given the means to flourish.


Power was bestowed upon the Christian hierarchy and it received economic favors from the government. The money that had previously gone to pagan priests now went to Christian bishops. Later in the fourth century all other pagan cults were suppressed or destroyed, although many of their traditions were absorbed into Christianity. Those foolhardy enough to hold onto their old beliefs were persecuted.


Wealthy people commonly left one third of their property to the church and the Christian clergy were exempt from paying some taxes. To be a bishop became a ticket to affluence, and an appointment as such was highly sought after. Bribery and tax evasion was common. Inevitably, it was the rich and well connected who became bishops, and many were lured from the army or navy. The Catholic Church became very wealthy and powerful.


As a consequence of Paul’s amorphous Christ concept, there was much contention as to whether Christ was a God, a spirit, a mortal man, or all three. Arius, a presbyter from Libya, gained followers around the empire by insisting


“there was a time when the Son was not.” Others said the son was of the same substance as the Father. The argument spread, threatening to rip the church in two. Constantine disapproved of the conjecture and called the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE to rectify the rift. (http://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/the_...peror.html). This was the first ecumenical council of the Christian church, and Constantine commanded it, which confirms how close church and state had become. It resulted in the first uniform Christian doctrine; that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit were all of the same substance, a belief that became known as the Nicene Creed. This was perhaps the only time in history a person (Jesus) was proclaimed a god by a vote. Those who voted against it were banished. The following website seems to capture the atmosphere at the council. (http://www.cristoraul.com/ENGLISH/readin.../11.html).


Prior to the Council of Nicaea, Jesus had most often been perceived as an intermediary between man and God; the council decided he actually was God. The core character of Christianity was created; Jesus the son of God. This Nicaean
formula clearly wasn’t founded on Yeshua. It was nothing more than a contortionist creation invented to unify some of the opinions about Jesus.


Some websites claim that there were not only Christian commanders at this council, but leaders from many other cults, sects and religions too, including those of Apollo, Demeter/Ceres, Dionysus, Janus, Jupiter, Zeus, Osiris and Isis. (http://www.northernway.org/pagandna.html, http://www.examiner.com/article/1st-coun...h-part-014). The council contrived to coalesce these competing cults under one “catholic” church to be controlled by the Constantine government. The gods of these other cults were subjugated under the name of the new god, Jesus Christ. If this is true “Jesus” blended the religious formulas of China, India, Persia, Egypt, Greece, Rome and Palestine into a single sect suitable for all. Forget Christmas; the Council of Nicea was the event that marked the true birth of Jesus Christ.


Any texts that contradicted what the ecclesiastics had chosen as canonical were labeled as subversive. Old copies of
the gospels were recalled and scribes were co-opted to make new copies suitable for consumption throughout Christendom.


In 335 CE, a mere ten years later, all of a sudden Jesus wasn’t a god any more. A second Council, also convened by
Constantine, that of Tyre, reversed the conclusion of the first, and Arianism, the belief that Jesus was subordinate to the Father, became the brand new dogma. This decision lasted until Constantine's death in 337 CE, after which the empire was split into a Nicene West and an Arian East. There was no consensus about Jesus’ status for the next forty odd years.


In 381 CE, the emperor Theodosius convened an ecumenical council at Constantinople, resulting in the ratification of the
first Nicene formula. The Roman world was at last given a definitive triune god—a gobbledygook spiel about three characters in one that is still promoted by churches today.


The uneducated citizens of the Empire, impressed with the promise of a heavenly paradise, and intimidated with violence if they weren’t, were easy pickings for the Catholic Church, although some of the braver rural people hung on to many of their pagan traditions.


The vastness of the Roman Empire allowed Christianity to spread throughout much of Europe. An infrastructure under the
umbrella of one god and emperor was convenient. Before the Roman Empire declined in Europe, Christianity was firmly established in many of the key regions that would shape the history of the western world.


It’s obvious that the burgeoning power of Christianity had nothing to do with the inherent truth of the dogma and everything to do with politics and power.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2013, 07:10 PM
RE: The Ecumenical Councils and Creeds and the Trinity
(08-03-2013 08:16 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Aquinas said that if anyone said they understood the trinity, they were deluding themself. He said even he didn't. He made up some junk, but it's essentially meaningLESS. It's-self contradictory, in every way. On some level, the councils knew that. They tried to get around it, but never really came to grips with it.
It's called the "filioque procedit" argument, (in Latin)..how the son "preceeds" from the Father. Just bunk. http://www.allsaintscenterfortheology.or...ather.html
Why would you think you could understand everything about an infinite God?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2013, 07:20 PM
RE: The Ecumenical Councils and Creeds and the Trinity
(08-03-2013 07:05 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hey ...thanks for doing this. I learned a lot. Interesting how Constantinople was in charge in the 4th century (not Rome, like the Vatican claims.) I'll just add a few weeny points...and a few links for anyone interested....

In 313 CE, the Emperor Constantine (reigned from 306–337 CE) reversed the government’s policy of hostility to Christianity in his Edict of Milan. This turned out to be a momentous occurrence in world history. Constantine was a highly superstitious man and a Mithraic (in 304 CE Mithras had been declared Protector of the Roman Empire). He probably respected all religious cults, and interestingly, saw no contradiction in championing both Mithraism and Christianity. He held the title “Pontifex Maximus,” high priest of the cult of the state, (http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a104.htm) for himself. This title was to be later taken by the Popery.


What made Constantine embrace Christianity? His mother was a Christian. The church was springing up strongly. It was wide reaching and well organized, as it had modeled its hierarchy on Roman (not Jewish!) principles. It had a clerical class, and a chain of command that was competent at controlling conflicts. The bishops had a level of legal autonomy allowing
them to interpret law. The Christians accepted people from all parts of the empire. Unlike many Jews, they respected Roman rule. All this was attractive to Constantine because he wanted stability. In the preceding decades civil wars and external enemies had challenged the Pax Romana. He was overseeing a massive, disparate empire, so the social cohesion made possible by a universal monotheism was appealing. He knew the people were easier to control if they all
shared the same religion.


His government embraced Christians as allies. In 320 CE he declared himself a Christian and fashioned himself as a priest-king who was the thirteenth apostle of Jesus. (http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/arc/constant...ntine.html). Christianity was given a colossal leg up by becoming the official religion of the empire. The new faith went to bed with
the political masters of the Western world and the empire had a universal religion to unite most of its people. It was a marriage of convenience that suited both parties. It was due to this symbiotic connection that Christianity was
established and given the means to flourish.


Power was bestowed upon the Christian hierarchy and it received economic favors from the government. The money that had previously gone to pagan priests now went to Christian bishops. Later in the fourth century all other pagan cults were suppressed or destroyed, although many of their traditions were absorbed into Christianity. Those foolhardy enough to hold onto their old beliefs were persecuted.


Wealthy people commonly left one third of their property to the church and the Christian clergy were exempt from paying some taxes. To be a bishop became a ticket to affluence, and an appointment as such was highly sought after. Bribery and tax evasion was common. Inevitably, it was the rich and well connected who became bishops, and many were lured from the army or navy. The Catholic Church became very wealthy and powerful.


As a consequence of Paul’s amorphous Christ concept, there was much contention as to whether Christ was a God, a spirit, a mortal man, or all three. Arius, a presbyter from Libya, gained followers around the empire by insisting


“there was a time when the Son was not.” Others said the son was of the same substance as the Father. The argument spread, threatening to rip the church in two. Constantine disapproved of the conjecture and called the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE to rectify the rift. (http://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/the_...peror.html). This was the first ecumenical council of the Christian church, and Constantine commanded it, which confirms how close church and state had become. It resulted in the first uniform Christian doctrine; that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit were all of the same substance, a belief that became known as the Nicene Creed. This was perhaps the only time in history a person (Jesus) was proclaimed a god by a vote. Those who voted against it were banished. The following website seems to capture the atmosphere at the council. (http://www.cristoraul.com/ENGLISH/readin.../11.html).


Prior to the Council of Nicaea, Jesus had most often been perceived as an intermediary between man and God; the council decided he actually was God. The core character of Christianity was created; Jesus the son of God. This Nicaean
formula clearly wasn’t founded on Yeshua. It was nothing more than a contortionist creation invented to unify some of the opinions about Jesus.


Some websites claim that there were not only Christian commanders at this council, but leaders from many other cults, sects and religions too, including those of Apollo, Demeter/Ceres, Dionysus, Janus, Jupiter, Zeus, Osiris and Isis. (http://www.northernway.org/pagandna.html, http://www.examiner.com/article/1st-coun...h-part-014). The council contrived to coalesce these competing cults under one “catholic” church to be controlled by the Constantine government. The gods of these other cults were subjugated under the name of the new god, Jesus Christ. If this is true “Jesus” blended the religious formulas of China, India, Persia, Egypt, Greece, Rome and Palestine into a single sect suitable for all. Forget Christmas; the Council of Nicea was the event that marked the true birth of Jesus Christ.


Any texts that contradicted what the ecclesiastics had chosen as canonical were labeled as subversive. Old copies of
the gospels were recalled and scribes were co-opted to make new copies suitable for consumption throughout Christendom.


In 335 CE, a mere ten years later, all of a sudden Jesus wasn’t a god any more. A second Council, also convened by
Constantine, that of Tyre, reversed the conclusion of the first, and Arianism, the belief that Jesus was subordinate to the Father, became the brand new dogma. This decision lasted until Constantine's death in 337 CE, after which the empire was split into a Nicene West and an Arian East. There was no consensus about Jesus’ status for the next forty odd years.


In 381 CE, the emperor Theodosius convened an ecumenical council at Constantinople, resulting in the ratification of the
first Nicene formula. The Roman world was at last given a definitive triune god—a gobbledygook spiel about three characters in one that is still promoted by churches today.


The uneducated citizens of the Empire, impressed with the promise of a heavenly paradise, and intimidated with violence if they weren’t, were easy pickings for the Catholic Church, although some of the braver rural people hung on to many of their pagan traditions.


The vastness of the Roman Empire allowed Christianity to spread throughout much of Europe. An infrastructure under the
umbrella of one god and emperor was convenient. Before the Roman Empire declined in Europe, Christianity was firmly established in many of the key regions that would shape the history of the western world.


It’s obvious that the burgeoning power of Christianity had nothing to do with the inherent truth of the dogma and everything to do with politics and power.
And this is why we had the Protestant reformation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes mrbuddy4413's post
08-03-2013, 07:34 PM
RE: The Ecumenical Councils and Creeds and the Trinity
Oh great. Another theist troll.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2013, 07:35 PM
RE: The Ecumenical Councils and Creeds and the Trinity
(08-03-2013 07:05 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  As a consequence of Paul’s amorphous Christ concept, there was much contention as to whether Christ was a God, a spirit, a mortal man, or all three. Arius, a presbyter from Libya, gained followers around the empire by insisting

“there was a time when the Son was not.” Others said the son was of the same substance as the Father. The argument spread, threatening to rip the church in two. Constantine disapproved of the conjecture and called the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE to rectify the rift.

My favorite part in all this is that since Arius's teaching provoked a serious crisis he was exiled and before he could be readmitted into the fold he died mysteriously. Many Nicene Christians asserted that Arius's death was miraculous—a consequence of his allegedly heretical views. Several recent writers, far removed from the event, have guessed that Arius may have been poisoned by his opponents.

Lovely group that Council.


“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Full Circle's post
08-03-2013, 08:15 PM
RE: The Ecumenical Councils and Creeds and the Trinity
(08-03-2013 07:35 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(08-03-2013 07:05 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  As a consequence of Paul’s amorphous Christ concept, there was much contention as to whether Christ was a God, a spirit, a mortal man, or all three. Arius, a presbyter from Libya, gained followers around the empire by insisting

“there was a time when the Son was not.” Others said the son was of the same substance as the Father. The argument spread, threatening to rip the church in two. Constantine disapproved of the conjecture and called the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE to rectify the rift.

My favorite part in all this is that since Arius's teaching provoked a serious crisis he was exiled and before he could be readmitted into the fold he died mysteriously. Many Nicene Christians asserted that Arius's death was miraculous—a consequence of his allegedly heretical views. Several recent writers, far removed from the event, have guessed that Arius may have been poisoned by his opponents.

Lovely group that Council.
[font=Verdana][/font]
Yes, early demise was uncommon in those days.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-03-2013, 08:19 PM
RE: The Ecumenical Councils and Creeds and the Trinity
(08-03-2013 08:15 PM)mrbuddy4413 Wrote:  
(08-03-2013 07:35 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
My favorite part in all this is that since Arius's teaching provoked a serious crisis he was exiled and before he could be readmitted into the fold he died mysteriously. Many Nicene Christians asserted that Arius's death was miraculous—a consequence of his allegedly heretical views. Several recent writers, far removed from the event, have guessed that Arius may have been poisoned by his opponents.

Lovely group that Council.
[font=Verdana][/font]
Yes, early demise was uncommon in those days.
Do you mean not uncommon?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: