The End of The Death Penalty in America
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25-02-2014, 01:44 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 01:23 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I would rather my country not be on that list but if you think the Death Penalty is such a great idea there are the nations that you can go to and enjoy that punishment. Not exactly the world leaders in freedom and well being.

I already live in a nation that has death penalties. I'm not at all bothered by it.

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25-02-2014, 02:02 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 11:54 AM)cjlr Wrote:  The point is that other people have different moral foundations and thus will naturally and statistically disagree.

Well sure. I'm not trying to tell anyone they *should* support a death penalty. I've only expressed my ethical perspective on the matter. I don't even support the death penalty in practice, but my lack of support is pragmatic, rather than being rooted in ethics.

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25-02-2014, 02:59 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 01:32 PM)toadaly Wrote:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...icide_rate

If you use 0.8, rather than the most recent data, there are still about 50 nations with lesser, or similar murder rates, many of which have death penalties. But again, how would the lack of a death penalty cause murder rates to drop?

If you go by that very list then there are 16 jurisdictions with lower rates than 0.8/100k and four tied. 20, 50, close enough... Notwithstanding that such small countries and jurisdictions as Iceland, Monaco, French Polynesia, Brunei, Vanuatu, Palau, Luxembourg, etc (ie, most of those whose most recent estimates are ~0.8 or lower) exhibit extremely high variance due to the nature of statistical fluctuations.

It doesn't, and wouldn't, show any such thing. No one claimed it did? It shows that there is no correlation, which, as I literally just mentioned, counters an argument which sometimes is made. I did not say you made it, merely that I had heard it.

(25-02-2014 02:02 PM)toadaly Wrote:  Well sure. I'm not trying to tell anyone they *should* support a death penalty. I've only expressed my ethical perspective on the matter.

Right.

(25-02-2014 02:02 PM)toadaly Wrote:  I don't even support the death penalty in practice, but my lack of support is pragmatic, rather than being rooted in ethics.

And that's mostly what's being discussed. Individual morals can't be disputed, but societal cost/benefit sure can be...

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25-02-2014, 05:08 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 02:59 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If you go by that very list then there are 16 jurisdictions with lower rates than 0.8/100k and four tied. 20, 50, close enough... Notwithstanding that such small countries and jurisdictions as Iceland, Monaco, French Polynesia, Brunei, Vanuatu, Palau, Luxembourg, etc (ie, most of those whose most recent estimates are ~0.8 or lower) exhibit extremely high variance due to the nature of statistical fluctuations.

I really don't see a material difference between say, 0.8 and 1, or maybe even up to around 1.2. There's no value in drawing a hard threshold somewhere and counting exactly how many nations fall below it. That's just a pissing contest, and I don't have interest in that.

Quote:It doesn't, and wouldn't, show any such thing. No one claimed it did?

I wouldn't say that claim was made, but Revenant77x somewhat implied a causal relationship between lack of a death penalty and low murder rates.


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(25-02-2014 02:02 PM)toadaly Wrote:  I don't even support the death penalty in practice, but my lack of support is pragmatic, rather than being rooted in ethics.

And that's mostly what's being discussed. Individual morals can't be disputed, but societal cost/benefit sure can be...

...but you have to choose the criteria for that trade, which brings you right back to the ethics and desires of the individuals. If the goal is to minimize recidivism, well, the death penalty for even trivial crimes is a good way of doing that - aka China and North Korea. If the goal is to minimize cost, then it's not. If the goal is to ensure that no innocent person ever gets executed, then the death penalty fails. If the goal is to maximize vengeance, then Norway's system fails miserably. The criteria you pick for your trade are a reflection of your ethics and values.

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25-02-2014, 05:51 PM (This post was last modified: 25-02-2014 07:34 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 01:40 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 01:23 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Ah, so you are too lazy to even look and see what gender the person is to whom you are addressing?

Yes, I am indeed too lazy to go research your profile. You're a stupid fucking hypocritical cunt, and I'm just not that into you.

Quote:It has been proven to you numerous times that the death penalty is unnecessary, barbaric, and ineffective at everything.

I didn't say the death penalty was necessary. Learn to read you stupid effeminate fuck.


no need for the vitriol, seriously, Logica. FFS, it's not productive.

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25-02-2014, 06:10 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 05:51 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 01:40 PM)toadaly Wrote:  Yes, I am indeed too lazy to go research your profile. You're a stupid fucking hypocritical cunt, and I'm just not that into you.


I didn't say the death penalty was necessary. Learn to read you stupid effeminate fuck.


no need for the vitriol, seriously, man.

Uh Cathym, I assume you are female but this is not confirmed on your profile. I do agree however that Logica's anger is way over the top.
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25-02-2014, 07:33 PM (This post was last modified: 25-02-2014 07:36 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 06:10 PM)sandman Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 05:51 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  no need for the vitriol, seriously, man.

Uh Cathym, I assume you are female but this is not confirmed on your profile. I do agree however that Logica's anger is way over the top.

Oh man, my bad. I just re-read what I posted. I meant to direct the "no need to vitriol" comment at Logica, not toad. Like toad, I am guilty of not looking up the gender of Logica, mainly because I don't care, but I assumed she was a man since she was very gruff, rude (unladylike too).

I'm not a fan of the word cunt - but she repeatedly provoked him.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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26-02-2014, 06:48 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 01:40 PM)toadaly Wrote:  Yes, I am indeed too lazy to go research your profile. You're a stupid fucking hypocritical cunt, and I'm just not that into you.

Ah, so you don't even know what the word "hypocritical" means? You clearly don't because I have done nothing to indicate that I am.

(25-02-2014 01:40 PM)toadaly Wrote:  I didn't say the death penalty was necessary. Learn to read you stupid effeminate fuck.

Oh? So you are both blind and fucking stupid?

(25-02-2014 10:14 AM)toadaly Wrote:  I view this as not only acceptable, but necessary for maintaining order, and an ethical good as a result.

And what does my masculinity have to do with this? Grow the fuck up, you miserable child.

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26-02-2014, 06:50 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 05:51 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  no need for the vitriol, seriously, Logica. FFS, it's not productive.

This was never productive because toadaly is irrational and apathetic.

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26-02-2014, 07:54 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(26-02-2014 06:50 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 05:51 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  no need for the vitriol, seriously, Logica. FFS, it's not productive.

This was never productive because toadaly is irrational and apathetic.

Then don't talk to him. It's a pretty easy solution.

If you wanna continue, then don't jump on your moral high horse.

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