The End of The Death Penalty in America
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26-02-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(26-02-2014 11:33 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I can't find "enact revenge" anywhere on this list.

...suppose for a moment that I'm right, and these systems are ultimately rooted in vengeance. Would you really expect this to be verbalized in the mission statements? I wouldn't. But you can see it in the exercise of the system.

Almost everywhere, you see prescribed sentences for various crimes. Did someone do scientific studies to determine the optimum amount of time to keep someone imprisoned for each of these sentences, and that's how it was determined that rape is X years, simple assault is Y, etc? No. There isn't even consensus as to what we should be optimizing in such a study. The sentences are politically determined, and go to the core emotions of the citizenry at large (in a republic at least) who imagine these crimes happening to them, and how much pain to inflict on the criminal in response.

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(26-02-2014 10:54 AM)toadaly Wrote:  I'm not making an argument from morals, but instead from human nature. We are wired to seek vengeance, just as other social animals are.

What, so a naturalistic fallacy is better?

If you want to argue it *isn't* human nature, that's fine. But if you agree that it is, then how is it fallacious to assert that it is, or to recognize that this nature is the basis of our justice system, or to even go further, and assert that vengeance is not unethical, or to even take the final step, and declare that ethics derive from our nature? What else could they even potentially derive from? Why have ethics at all?

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(26-02-2014 10:54 AM)toadaly Wrote:  Arguing that we *shouldn't* use that as a basis for criminal justice, is an argument from morals.

... no it isn't.

Back it on up. What is the underlying question:
"What is the purpose of a legal system?"

The answer is not vengeance. It is social cohesion.

Well, that's *your* answer, but it isn't a universal truism, I doubt that it's even a common perspective.

I would think most people would say that the primary reason for a justice system is deterrence. The second place vote, in my guess, is to isolate criminals from the rest of us, third place might be to rehabilitate them.

But the effect of vengeance is exactly the same as what I would guess are the top two answers - to deter, and to socially isolate criminals. The "let's be nice to them" idea is fairly new. It might work to reduce recidivism, but so does life in prison and so does execution.

Quote:I am certainly showing my own biases. I am very utilitarian. Revenge is highly deontological.

Maybe, but it also works to make social groups possible. If it didn't, it would not have been selected for in evolutionary history. If it works, that's as good a basis for ethics as any other.

Quote:That moral impulse like all others is subject to innate statistical variation among human beings. I absolutely reject the idea that all humans are hardwired to seek revenge. I myself see no particular virtue in it.

I suspect I could get you riled up if I really wanted to, to the point you'd be screaming at your computer wanting to beat the crap out of me....maybe not, but if not, you're a very rare individual.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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26-02-2014, 01:35 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(26-02-2014 10:09 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I like how I am supposed to respected you clearly non-thought out position of revenge good because.... but Logica who has presented an actual case can be dismissed because you don't like his avatar. What should I expect from someone who thinks Frankksj is some kind of wiseman.

If you want to follow the thread, you'll see that Logica threw the first punch completely out of the blue.

At any rate, I'm not trying to convince you my ethics are superior to yours. I'm only arguing that justice systems are rooted in vengeance, and more to the point, in measured vengeance that prevents escalation. Even our language reflects this. We call it a 'justice' system, not a 'rehab' system. Criminal law is referred to as a 'penal' code, not a 'reconditioning' code, etc.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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26-02-2014, 01:39 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(26-02-2014 10:14 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  ... get the fuck out and grow up.

So far, all you've done is tell me to grow the fuck up, to get the fuck out, etc. , yet you expect me to engage you intellectually? The only interaction you and I are going to have is a brawl, little girl.

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26-02-2014, 04:46 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(26-02-2014 01:39 PM)toadaly Wrote:  So far, all you've done is tell me to grow the fuck up, to get the fuck out, etc. , yet you expect me to engage you intellectually? The only interaction you and I are going to have is a brawl, little girl.

No, I do not expect you to engage anyone intellectually because you have no intellectual argument to make. Drinking Beverage

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26-02-2014, 05:33 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(26-02-2014 04:46 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 01:39 PM)toadaly Wrote:  So far, all you've done is tell me to grow the fuck up, to get the fuck out, etc. , yet you expect me to engage you intellectually? The only interaction you and I are going to have is a brawl, little girl.

No, I do not expect you to engage anyone intellectually because you have no intellectual argument to make. Drinking Beverage

...well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion little girl.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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27-02-2014, 04:31 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(26-02-2014 05:33 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(26-02-2014 04:46 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  No, I do not expect you to engage anyone intellectually because you have no intellectual argument to make. Drinking Beverage

...well, you're certainly entitled to your opinion little girl.

Well now you just sound a jackass, Toad. You can ignore Logica just as easily as you ignore me. Obviously not too much, because you felt compelled to update my rating just to explain to me that it wasn't because you didn't like me, and to notify me you added me to your ignore list.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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28-02-2014, 01:29 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
Yet again more signs.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/will...snhp&pos=1

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

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03-03-2014, 05:55 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
A civilized society does not execute it's citizens for any reason.
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03-03-2014, 06:02 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(03-03-2014 05:55 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  A civilized society does not execute it's citizens for any reason.

Civilized societies have been executing serious criminals for thousands of years. 'Civilized' is not the word you're looking for, as you are expressing a personal ethic, probably that of humanism?

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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03-03-2014, 06:04 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(03-03-2014 06:02 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(03-03-2014 05:55 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  A civilized society does not execute it's citizens for any reason.

Civilized societies have been executing serious criminals for thousands of years. 'Civilized' is not the word you're looking for, as you are expressing a personal ethic, probably that of humanism?

No, sorry but standards of civility change. It was once civilised to have your main street be a sewer but not anymore. Civilised societies today do not execute their citizens with 1 very notable exception.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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