The End of The Death Penalty in America
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04-03-2014, 09:49 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(04-03-2014 12:02 AM)toadaly Wrote:  
(03-03-2014 11:45 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  No I mean civilized. If Japan executes people then they (admittedly my standard) are not civilized. If you find that offensive so be it. It's how I feel and I won't apologize.

Now if you feel that I must use civilized in some Ivy League way you will be disappointed. Perhaps you're aware of colloquialisms? This is how the word is used where I come from and as I said before, you know what I meant. So how about we not argue semantics. It's a useless endeavour...

The thing is, I *don't* know what you mean. I know it clearly violates your personal ethics. but I don't know if you're trying to make a stronger point than that, or more importantly *why* you find it unacceptable.

Why the hell should any of us care what the personal ethics of others are, especially if they even thought it through for themselves? I've provided my reasoning. You might not agree with it, you might find my reasoning flawed, you might find it brutush, or whatever, but at least I've given it some thought. That's more than what I've seen from the masses trying to change the meaning of the word 'civilized' because they've never given it any thought and have no better argument.

Civilized- a stage of cultural social and moral development considered to be more advanced. I don't see a problem with using that word. I think practicing the death penalty is not morally advanced and therefore uncivilized. Perhaps "not civilized enough" is the phrase I should have used.
Maybe you are offended because you live in a country that I consider not civilized enough.
I never asked anyone to care about my personal ethics but this thread is about the death penalty and I consider the practice barbaric, that is to say uncivilized! It is my opinion. You don't have to like it.
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04-03-2014, 09:57 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(04-03-2014 09:49 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Civilized- a stage of cultural social and moral development considered to be more advanced. I don't see a problem with using that word. I think practicing the death penalty is not morally advanced and therefore uncivilized. Perhaps "not civilized enough" is the phrase I should have used.
Maybe you are offended because you live in a country that I consider not civilized enough.
I never asked anyone to care about my personal ethics but this thread is about the death penalty and I consider the practice barbaric, that is to say uncivilized! It is my opinion. You don't have to like it.

I don't feel offended. I'm trying to get you (and several others) to stop equivocating, be intellectually honest, and challenge your own position the way those who call themselves 'skeptic' or 'free thinker' should. If the best argument you can come up with is to abuse the language in an attempt to demonize the opposition, you should stop calling yourself a skeptic.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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04-03-2014, 11:11 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(04-03-2014 09:57 AM)toadaly Wrote:  
(04-03-2014 09:49 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Civilized- a stage of cultural social and moral development considered to be more advanced. I don't see a problem with using that word. I think practicing the death penalty is not morally advanced and therefore uncivilized. Perhaps "not civilized enough" is the phrase I should have used.
Maybe you are offended because you live in a country that I consider not civilized enough.
I never asked anyone to care about my personal ethics but this thread is about the death penalty and I consider the practice barbaric, that is to say uncivilized! It is my opinion. You don't have to like it.

I don't feel offended. I'm trying to get you (and several others) to stop equivocating, be intellectually honest, and challenge your own position the way those who call themselves 'skeptic' or 'free thinker' should. If the best argument you can come up with is to abuse the language in an attempt to demonize the opposition, you should stop calling yourself a skeptic.

Then what word would you use?
As the definition says , a stage of moral development considered to be more advanced.
I do not consider executing people to be morally advanced. What's the confusion here. At what stage do you consider a society to uncivilized? What horrible acts should they perform to be considered barbaric?
I'm not being intellectually dishonest but perhaps I am demonizing folks. But they deserve it. Killing people is not fucking civilized behaviour. It is a medieval practice performed by the ignorant and fearful. If a society allows for barbaric practices how then can it be civilized?
I will stand by my statement.
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04-03-2014, 11:25 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
I would ask how can a free society, civilized or not, not be based on the ethics of the individual citizen? We move forward, learning what is good and bad We adopt new and positive ideals and morals and become more civilized.
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04-03-2014, 11:57 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(04-03-2014 11:11 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Then what word would you use?

Ethics, or morals if you prefer. Rather than simply demonizing the death penalty, *explain* in coherent terms what's wrong with it ...if you just find it distasteful, or whatever, that's fine, but just state as much. We don't all have to agree on our opinions, but if you want to claim yours is better and anyone who disagrees is wrong, you need to support it in some way.

Quote:I do not consider executing people to be morally advanced. What's the confusion here. At what stage do you consider a society to uncivilized? What horrible acts should they perform to be considered barbaric?

I provided the definition already, go argue with Webster if you want it changed. I understand it's commonplace to misuse words in hyperbolic ways, I do it too. But don't try to pretend that you're not doing that when called to task.

Quote:I'm not being intellectually dishonest but perhaps I am demonizing folks. But they deserve it. Killing people is not fucking civilized behaviour. It is a medieval practice performed by the ignorant and fearful.

...more demonization, and not a lick of reasoning or argument.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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04-03-2014, 12:06 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(04-03-2014 11:25 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  I would ask how can a free society, civilized or not, not be based on the ethics of the individual citizen? We move forward, learning what is good and bad We adopt new and positive ideals and morals and become more civilized.

In representative systems, ideally the laws of the society do in fact reflect the common ethics of the citizens. The death penalty is still on the books in 95 countries, and is still actively used in 40.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capi...by_country

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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04-03-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
Bullshit semantics! We are arguing over the meaning of a word!
You are the one being dishonest. You claim you don't know what I meant when it obvious that you do if you feel I'm using hyperbolic language. I never claimed that my opinion is more valid than any others but I also gave a definition, that I got out of a dictionary, for civilized and is used the word correctly. I have explained why I think countries that execute people are uncivilized and isn't it obvious that I find the death penalty distasteful and immoral! I feel that it is barbaric. I also feel that countries that cut peoples hands off for theft and countries that cut out little girls clits are uncivilized. But anyway I'm not interested in arguing semantics although I've been sucked into doing it.
As I said you know exactly what I meant.
Executing people is an uncivilized act. An a nation truly civilized would not sanction it. That is my opinion. You do t have to like it but there it is.
Oh yeah and I don't care how many nations sanction the death penalty. What doe that have to do with anything?
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04-03-2014, 02:35 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(04-03-2014 12:06 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(04-03-2014 11:25 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  I would ask how can a free society, civilized or not, not be based on the ethics of the individual citizen? We move forward, learning what is good and bad We adopt new and positive ideals and morals and become more civilized.

In representative systems, ideally the laws of the society do in fact reflect the common ethics of the citizens. The death penalty is still on the books in 95 countries, and is still actively used in 40.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_capi...by_country
And by the definition I've given for civilized(got it out of a dictionary by the way) these countries are uncivilized. Now if I can't have an opinion of what is civilized and what is not then what is the objective standard for it?
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04-03-2014, 03:01 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
Quote:You are the one being dishonest. You claim you don't know what I meant when it obvious that you do if you feel I'm using hyperbolic language.

No, I *still* don't know what you mean. I'm sure I've somewhat got it right, but not specifically. I think you are trying to make a stronger point than merely expressing your opinion, but I don't know what that point is.

Quote:I never claimed that my opinion is more valid than any others but I also gave a definition, that I got out of a dictionary, for civilized and is used the word correctly.

You did provide a definition. I'm going to use that same definition now. Societies without a death penalty are uncivilized.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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04-03-2014, 03:45 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
Ok.....
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