The End of The Death Penalty in America
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06-02-2014, 05:09 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(05-02-2014 11:39 PM)toadaly Wrote:  I understand distrust of the justice system, and that being a good reason to oppose the death penalty, but I don't understand people who oppose it on some kind of moral grounds.

Neither do I. But I am biased because I was close friends with the victim of a serial murderer.

If we lived in an ideal world nobody would ever commit a crime worthy of capital punishment being considered, but.....well; people be crazy. After it's known beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are capable of committing truly horrible atrocities, the rest of society may as well just turn you into the worm food you chose to behave like. We can't let you out to lead a normal life ever again, and keeping you alive and fed just wastes tax dollars.

I have to admit that I never understood why people protest this. It's not "modern" or "nice?" So what?

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06-02-2014, 05:48 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
Some people just deserve to have their brainstem severed with a Captive Bolt gun.

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06-02-2014, 10:34 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
I will admit to being opposed to the death penalty for semi moralistic grounds. I find it barbaric and smacking of the sort of vengeful wrath that many here condemn the old testament god for.

There are however two very practical reasons why all, even those who think the death penalty is appropriate should oppose it.

The application of the death penalty is spotty at best. In general there is a much higher correlation between the quality of the legal consul the accused received and the sentence of death, than the nature of the crime committed. As a consequence far more poor people are sentenced to death. Sometimes the poor receive such poor consul that they are sentenced to death when the evidence does not support them even being convicted in the first place.

The cost of sentencing someone to death and actually carrying it out far exceeds life without parole. Between mandatory appeals and providing lawyers, non mandatory appeals brought by the accused and so on people are far more likely to die on death row than to be executed. At least that is the case in California. The cost of all these appeals adds up to be far more than the cost of life without parole.

I certainly understand the feeling of closure that someone who was personally involved with a victim could get when the perpetrator is executed. Society as a whole must look at the unfairness and the cost.
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06-02-2014, 01:28 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(05-02-2014 08:20 PM)Dee Wrote:  I don't support the death penalty. I believe it's an archaic function fueled by the need for revenge, like an "eye for an eye." And, according to stats, the death penalty is not a deterrent to murder. And, I believe it's a step up the evolution scale in social consciousness to end the death penalty.

I know it's going to come up so:
Um, yes, a member of my family, my 6 year old daughter, was victim to a terrible crime. Revenge was not what we NEEDED or wanted--it will eat you up. We did want protection for other children through permanent incarceration for him. Most people that commit his type of crime don't rehabilitate, so, life would have been the best protection for others.

On Texas: I don't see the Texas legislation or Texans giving up the death penalty easily.
I am against revenge. Revenge is wrong reason to give death penalty. But I am for JUSTICE.
If I steel from you $10 I have to give it back to you. This is fair and Justice. If I kill you in cold blood I have to die also. It is fair and Justice not a revenge.
I don't hate killers. It would be wrong to hate them. But I love Justice and what is fair.
I am not for the torture of the killers. Their suffering do nothing good to anybody. But I am for killing those who torture others and kill them in cold blood.

I am for JUSTICE for TRUE victims. They DESREVE it. Death for death, tooth for tooth, eye for eye. It is NOT a revenge. It is not out of hate. It is - do what is FAIR.
It calls RESTITUTION.

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06-02-2014, 01:29 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(06-02-2014 10:34 AM)JAH Wrote:  I will admit to being opposed to the death penalty for semi moralistic grounds. I find it barbaric and smacking of the sort of vengeful wrath that many here condemn the old testament god for.

There's a bit of a difference though. People who rape and murder kids have earned having their heads removed. People who's crime is eating shellfish, do not. The death penalty is not handed out flippantly in the US. It's reserved for those who generally deserve to be horrifically tortured for years on end...but we are more merciful than that.

Quote:The application of the death penalty is spotty at best. In general there is a much higher correlation between the quality of the legal consul the accused received and the sentence of death, than the nature of the crime committed. As a consequence far more poor people are sentenced to death. Sometimes the poor receive such poor consul that they are sentenced to death when the evidence does not support them even being convicted in the first place.

I oppose the death penalty on this practical basis - I just don't trust the justice system, and you can't undo the death penalty when someone is convicted in error. But from a moral basis, I'd be happy to pull the lever personally.

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06-02-2014, 01:50 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(05-02-2014 07:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 06:54 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  This drug mixture was used on a prisoner named Dennis McGuire with horrible results. McGuire gasped, chocked, gagged, and convulsed for 25 minutes before he finally died. I doubt they will try such a drug combination like that again.

"Poor" guy. I wonder how his victim suffered? How many minutes or hours he tortured her? how many times she was gasping, was chocked, gaged and convulsed, how scared was she?
poor, poor whatever his name is.
I wonder if you care about TRUE victim. I doubt.

One person suffered, so now another must suffer, too? Why can't we want less suffering in the world? We can't go back in time and stop what happened to the victim; we can have an impact on whether or not we inflict more suffering on others going forward.
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06-02-2014, 01:58 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2014 02:34 PM by JAH.)
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
toadally, I agree with the above for the most part. I have said in the past that if I, without doubt, knew the identity of someone how very significantly harmed one of my family I would be tempted to kill them myself. And, might even do so if I knew I could get away with it.

It is the interjection of the state and society into this decision where the problems of the application of the death penalty commence.

I will also say that even if I was confident that all death penalty sentences were properly handed out by the legal system I would still object to it for the cost reasons. One could make the argument that if the legal system worked properly the cost of execution should be less than life without parole. I do not think that either the public or the legal system would accept execution in a timely manner and therefore think the cost would still remain higher than life with out parole.

PS, the above was posted while I was typing. It reminded me, I have wondered for a long time now why states don't just use a fatal injection of pure heroin to execute prisoners.
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06-02-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(06-02-2014 01:50 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  One person suffered, so now another must suffer, too? Why can't we want less suffering in the world? We can't go back in time and stop what happened to the victim; we can have an impact on whether or not we inflict more suffering on others going forward.

If you want less suffering, it seems like you should favor the death penalty. To the extent it involves any suffering at all, it's very short lived. Life in prison, on the other hand, involves decades of suffering.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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06-02-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
toadally, heading a bit off topic but your above comment is also one of my arguments for life without parole. I point out that, what do you think is worse 20 years in prison then a short burst of pain or 30-40-50 years in prison maybe more then death by natural causes.

I have to look it up to confirm but must head out to get some stuff so will not. It is my understanding that in California at least more prisoners sentenced to death die from old age and than execution. So in effect the sentence is life without parole.
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06-02-2014, 02:34 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(06-02-2014 01:58 PM)JAH Wrote:  I will also say that even if I was confident that all death penalty sentences were properly handed out by the legal system I would still object to it for the cost reasons. One could make the argument that if the legal system worked properly the cost of execution should be less than life without parole. I do not think that either the public or the legal system would accept execution in a timely manner and therefore think the cost would still remain higher than life with out parole.

I suppose cost is a factor, but not one I care much about. If we cared about costs of the justice system, we'd legalize pot nationwide, which would cut costs in roughly half.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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