The End of The Death Penalty in America
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06-02-2014, 03:06 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
I guess the way I think about this is not going to be very popular.

Firstly, if I was the convict, I would want a choice. And if I was guilty I would choose death any day over a life in prison. Any day. Not a second of deliberation needed. If I was not guilty I might hold out for being proven innocent.

As a member of society, I am not much into punishment or revenge. I am, however, for permanent prevention.

That means to me, either the death penalty or real, true life in prison without parole are acceptable.

However, I don't want to pay for some cruel asshole for the rest of his life. So I think prison for such a person should be bare essentials. No TV. No nothing but a plain bed, toilet and basic nutrition.

Now, since I am not vindictive about this at all, I think the convict should have the opportunity to better his/her life. Work for it. There are many jobs that can be done by computer and without being allowed on the internet. There are many things that can be created by hand. If the convict comes up with a way to make some money, s/he is welcome to make some and get a TV and a rug and an armchair and books and and and.... Just as long as they are making money themselves to pay for it. They can eat better food, have better matrasses, and so on and so forth. Just as long as society isn't paying for it, and the convict earns this with their own labor.

That's how I see it.

There is also always the possibility that a person is innocent, and putting an innocent person to death is a nightmare. Hence I stand firmly behind letting the convict choose life in prison or death.

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06-02-2014, 03:21 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(06-02-2014 03:06 PM)Dom Wrote:  I guess the way I think about this is not going to be very popular.

Firstly, if I was the convict, I would want a choice. And if I was guilty I would choose death any day over a life in prison. Any day. Not a second of deliberation needed. If I was not guilty I might hold out for being proven innocent.

As a member of society, I am not much into punishment or revenge. I am, however, for permanent prevention.

That means to me, either the death penalty or real, true life in prison without parole are acceptable.

However, I don't want to pay for some cruel asshole for the rest of his life. So I think prison for such a person should be bare essentials. No TV. No nothing but a plain bed, toilet and basic nutrition.

Now, since I am not vindictive about this at all, I think the convict should have the opportunity to better his/her life. Work for it. There are many jobs that can be done by computer and without being allowed on the internet. There are many things that can be created by hand. If the convict comes up with a way to make some money, s/he is welcome to make some and get a TV and a rug and an armchair and books and and and.... Just as long as they are making money themselves to pay for it. They can eat better food, have better matrasses, and so on and so forth. Just as long as society isn't paying for it, and the convict earns this with their own labor.

That's how I see it.

There is also always the possibility that a person is innocent, and putting an innocent person to death is a nightmare. Hence I stand firmly behind letting the convict choose life in prison or death.

I agree with most of you said here.

There have been cases where rapists and chils molesters sitting in prison have begged to be put to death because they knew if they were ever released they would commit the same crime again. Sometimes these people aren't horrible people, they just have something very flawed in their genetic makeup that makes such crimes alluring beyond control. I don't hate rapists or murderers, but I also don't think they can be rehabilitated very often. Someone who has no empathy is suffering from a genetic flaw, not a bad upbringing or lack of moral education. The only humane thing to do in my opinion is capital punishment, both for the criminal and the victim.

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06-02-2014, 03:59 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(06-02-2014 02:34 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 01:58 PM)JAH Wrote:  I will also say that even if I was confident that all death penalty sentences were properly handed out by the legal system I would still object to it for the cost reasons. One could make the argument that if the legal system worked properly the cost of execution should be less than life without parole. I do not think that either the public or the legal system would accept execution in a timely manner and therefore think the cost would still remain higher than life with out parole.

I suppose cost is a factor, but not one I care much about. If we cared about costs of the justice system, we'd legalize pot nationwide, which would cut costs in roughly half.

Can't. The cops are out there leading the charge to keep the status quo. You see, it is a big part of their budget and they have used it to run roughshod over civil liberties in the name of "law and order."

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06-02-2014, 04:07 PM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2014 04:12 PM by Alla.)
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(06-02-2014 01:50 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  One person suffered, so now another must suffer, too?
No. I am not for the suffering of the murderer. But if it happened that he suffered then I wouldn't cry too much.

(06-02-2014 01:50 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Why can't we want less suffering in the world? We can't go back in time and stop what happened to the victim; we can have an impact on whether or not we inflict more suffering on others going forward.
I agree with you. Killers have to die as painlessly as possible. But if happens they don't then at least they can learn something. They can learn a fraction of what their victims felt.

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06-02-2014, 04:11 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(06-02-2014 03:06 PM)Dom Wrote:  I guess the way I think about this is not going to be very popular.

Firstly, if I was the convict, I would want a choice.
I am sure you would. But I guess convicts loose certain privileges. May be lack of this kind of choice stops some from killing others.
But I agree that it is horrible when innocent person has a death penalty.

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07-02-2014, 07:17 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(06-02-2014 01:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  I am against revenge. Revenge is wrong reason to give death penalty. But I am for JUSTICE.
If I steel from you $10 I have to give it back to you. This is fair and Justice. If I kill you in cold blood I have to die also. It is fair and Justice not a revenge.

So, you don't believe in any punishment whatsoever for theft? You just said justice would mean me just giving back to you what I stole. Philosophically, that's very interesting. Does it benefit society in any way to punish thieves beyond simply righting the wrong itself?

However, in the very next line, you violate your own logic. If it's justice to give back that which you have taken, then you dying should not be the response to you murdering someone. It should be for you to give life back to them. Exactly how is this accomplished by you dying?

(06-02-2014 01:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  I don't hate killers. It would be wrong to hate them. But I love Justice and what is fair.
I am not for the torture of the killers. Their suffering do nothing good to anybody. But I am for killing those who torture others and kill them in cold blood.

Again, violating your own logic. If you're only interested in justice, you can't temper your desire for justice with what's good for society as a whole. What if the death penalty is working contrary to the interests of society in terms of crime rates and severity of crimes, not to mention probability of recidivism? Would you still want the death penalty?

(06-02-2014 01:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  I am for JUSTICE for TRUE victims. They DESREVE it. Death for death, tooth for tooth, eye for eye. It is NOT a revenge. It is not out of hate. It is - do what is FAIR.
It calls RESTITUTION.

I don't think that word means what you think it means. Restitution would require that there would be something that the death penalty could do for the victim, which is preposterous since the victim is dead.

It is by definition impossible to give any sort of restitution to the victim of murder, because that victim is completely and utterly incapable of receiving anything whatsoever, being mostly dead.

If killing the killer would bring the dead back to life, THAT would be an interesting discussion with regards to restitution, but since that isn't the case, using that word doesn't make sense.

However, what if a person was guilty of rape and torture, but not murder? Would you advocate raping and torturing them?

No, you said as much yourself. Which means you don't actually advocate 'An eye for an eye'. You advocate 'An eye for an eye' whenever you arbitrarily decide that it would be appropriate. Law can never be arbitrary. It's literally written into any western constitution you can dig up; laws can never ever be the subject of special pleading.
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07-02-2014, 08:24 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
I have two thoughts on this, that don't really get into how I personally feel about the death penalty.

My first thought is, no matter how you feel about it, the death penalty will eventually be abolished. Like it or not, it is an archaic and we have been progressively moving in a direction that in my mind, points to it being abolished. The European Union has already taken that step, I don't think the United States will lag behind forever.

Secondly is an observation. Generally speaking, conservatives/republicans are the group more in favor of the death penalty, while liberals/democrats tend to oppose. I find this ironic, since Republicans are generally religious, you would think they would be the group less likely to support the death penalty. After all, you are attempting to play god when condemning someone to death, and it also goes against the teachings of your savior, who was ironically executed. This is something I have never understood.
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07-02-2014, 10:11 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(07-02-2014 08:24 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  Generally speaking, conservatives/republicans are the group more in favor of the death penalty, while liberals/democrats tend to oppose. I find this ironic, since Republicans are generally religious, you would think they would be the group less likely to support the death penalty. After all, you are attempting to play god when condemning someone to death, and it also goes against the teachings of your savior, who was ironically executed. This is something I have never understood.

Not to insult an entire political party, but it seems like Republicans want to fight tooth and nail to make sure every embryo is born, but once you're actually out of your mom's womb you can fuck right off. That's just a general ongoing theme with them, you know? Wink

I truthfully do wonder why people always use emotional adjectives when they argue against the death penalty, tho. Why does it have to be about "revenge" and whatnot? Why can't it just be about that person not further burdening society?

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08-02-2014, 12:38 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(07-02-2014 10:11 PM)Cephalotus Wrote:  I truthfully do wonder why people always use emotional adjectives when they argue against the death penalty, tho. Why does it have to be about "revenge" and whatnot? Why can't it just be about that person not further burdening society?

IMHO, it *is* about revenge, as is prison in general. The reason we have codified a system of revenge, is to keep victims from exacting it directly, in an uncontroled manner. The justice system has nothing to do with refoorming people, nor with just keeping them off the streets. the entire system is focused on revenge.

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08-02-2014, 01:12 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
I wholeheartedly disagree with that, but the justice system in your country might be different than mine.

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