The End of The Death Penalty in America
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19-02-2014, 09:04 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(19-02-2014 08:34 PM)Atheist Razor Wrote:  To expect 100% accuracy all the time is hardly a realistic expectation, error is inherent in any system of organization. Execution, if done correctly would seem to be the most cost effective method of dispensing justice.

Ummm no our system of Justice was set up in the way it was on the foundational principle that it is better 100 guilty men go free than an innocent man be punished. With that in mind a punishment that by definition kills the defendant must be held to a higher standard.

(19-02-2014 08:34 PM)Atheist Razor Wrote:  Also, I question the wisdom of a system that would knowingly put it's own citizens in danger by releasing dangerous criminals back into the community with no economic or social stability and not expect them to re-offend.

Life without the possibility of parole. If you were going for the death penalty then this should be the best option.

(19-02-2014 08:34 PM)Atheist Razor Wrote:  I just don't see a valid, practical reason why you would reject this method. Perhaps you would be so kind as to elaborate further?

Innocent people have been killed by the state and that does not bother you? The fact that only the most barbarous rogue regimes and hellholes still use this form of punishment. The simple fact is as a deterrent it is a failure and as a punishment it is not civilised, this is without bringing up the cost. The death penalty is going to become a thing of the past in the US sooner rather than later and not soon enough.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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19-02-2014, 11:12 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(19-02-2014 08:34 PM)Atheist Razor Wrote:  To expect 100% accuracy all the time is hardly a realistic expectation, error is inherent in any system of organization. Execution, if done correctly would seem to be the most cost effective method of dispensing justice.

I don't expect 100% accuracy, but I do expect a very high accuracy, and I don't think we have it. If you believe the stats from the Innocence project, about 25% of those we execute are innocent. Juries are amazingly stupid and easily swayed by crappy arguments...which should not be surprising.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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25-02-2014, 06:56 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(05-02-2014 07:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 06:54 PM)Carlo_The_Bugsmasher_Driver Wrote:  This drug mixture was used on a prisoner named Dennis McGuire with horrible results. McGuire gasped, chocked, gagged, and convulsed for 25 minutes before he finally died. I doubt they will try such a drug combination like that again.

"Poor" guy. I wonder how his victim suffered? How many minutes or hours he tortured her? how many times she was gasping, was chocked, gaged and convulsed, how scared was she?
poor, poor whatever his name is.
I wonder if you care about TRUE victim. I doubt.

That's a knee jerk reaction and a very primitive one. Eye for an eye. Victim suffered, therefore he should suffer.

I guess you missed the whole lesson on Jesus telling people not to take revenge, eh?

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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25-02-2014, 07:12 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
Personally, I support the death penalty for purely economic reasons.

sociopaths should be put to death. Granted they are a small percentage of our population. Dennis Rader, who confessed to killing all those people should have been executed. Not for eye for an eye but because society has no place for them. Frankly, I don't want to pay for him to eat, have a place to sleep, and for the guards to keep him there, and for antibiotics to cure him of illness. Ultimately, I don't want to shell out $ for him to live.

That said, the death penalty should be reserved for those instances where there is no doubt that the crime was committed by that person. Ie, body was found in their freezer, the murder weapon has their DNA on it, and they are insane.

It has nothing to do with revenge or eye for an eye or anything archaic like that.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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25-02-2014, 08:15 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 07:12 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Personally, I support the death penalty for purely economic reasons.

sociopaths should be put to death. Granted they are a small percentage of our population. Dennis Rader, who confessed to killing all those people should have been executed. Not for eye for an eye but because society has no place for them. Frankly, I don't want to pay for him to eat, have a place to sleep, and for the guards to keep him there, and for antibiotics to cure him of illness. Ultimately, I don't want to shell out $ for him to live.

That said, the death penalty should be reserved for those instances where there is no doubt that the crime was committed by that person. Ie, body was found in their freezer, the murder weapon has their DNA on it, and they are insane.

It has nothing to do with revenge or eye for an eye or anything archaic like that.

It costs 4 times more to execute someone than to imprison them for life and that is on the low end. From an economic standpoint the Death Penalty is a failure.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-02-2014, 09:26 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 07:12 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  That said, the death penalty should be reserved for those instances where there is no doubt that the crime was committed by that person. Ie, body was found in their freezer, the murder weapon has their DNA on it, and they are insane.

Right, but the problem with that is it's impossible to define. All convictions are supposed to be beyond doubt...

An "okay, but this time we know the guy is really guilty" clause is unworkable.

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25-02-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 08:15 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It costs 4 times more to execute someone than to imprison them for life and that is on the low end. From an economic standpoint the Death Penalty is a failure.

Maybe so, but the justice system is a legitimate and necessary role of the state. If we're worried about saving money, I'm pretty sure we can find fluff to cut. That said, I'm not a proponent of the death penalty, because our justice system has been completely corrupted by the combination of mandatory sentencing, the practice of plea bargaining, and a general decline into a police state.

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25-02-2014, 09:46 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 09:43 AM)toadaly Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 08:15 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It costs 4 times more to execute someone than to imprison them for life and that is on the low end. From an economic standpoint the Death Penalty is a failure.

Maybe so, but the justice system is a legitimate and necessary role of the state. If we're worried about saving money, I'm pretty sure we can find fluff to cut. That said, I'm not a proponent of the death penalty, because our justice system has been completely corrupted by the combination of mandatory sentencing, the practice of plea bargaining, and a general decline into a police state.

I addressed all of the other issues earlier but when someone says they are a fan of barbarity on economic reasons have to bust out the bottom line. There is only 1 reason anyone supports the Death Penalty and that is just pure Ape-rage revenge. He killed someone so we gotta kill him back. I refuse to concede any moral high ground to people thinking like that. This is not being soft on crime this is wanting to live in a civilised society.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-02-2014, 09:53 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
The idealist in me is against the death penalty. The government must stand as the objective law, as the objective justice. It is not there to mete out vengeance, but to pass justice. As such it should not deign to execute someone for murder, but to see that justice is served and that this person pays for what they have done. A life of hard labor, for example, would be acceptable. You kill someone? You get to spend your life digging ditches and cleaning up highways and whatnot.

The pragmatist in me supports the death penalty in certain cases. There are some people who cause problems even after they have been locked up, or who are too dangerous to be kept in prisons. Terrorist leaders, for example.
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25-02-2014, 09:55 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 09:46 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I addressed all of the other issues earlier but when someone says they are a fan of barbarity on economic reasons have to bust out the bottom line. There is only 1 reason anyone supports the Death Penalty and that is just pure Ape-rage revenge. He killed someone so we gotta kill him back.

I'm ok with ape-rage revenge. The desire for revenge is innate, and IMHO, it's the entire reason we have a penal system at all. Civil society has always leaned on a brutish undertone. Even where there is no death penalty, the primary purpose of imprisonment remains punishment.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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