The End of The Death Penalty in America
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25-02-2014, 10:01 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 09:55 AM)toadaly Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 09:46 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I addressed all of the other issues earlier but when someone says they are a fan of barbarity on economic reasons have to bust out the bottom line. There is only 1 reason anyone supports the Death Penalty and that is just pure Ape-rage revenge. He killed someone so we gotta kill him back.

I'm ok with ape-rage revenge. The desire for revenge is innate, and IMHO, it's the entire reason we have a penal system at all. Civil society has always leaned on a brutish undertone. Even where there is no death penalty, the primary purpose of imprisonment remains punishment.

I give you the model the world should follow Norway. http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2013...n-systems/ Highest standard of living lowest crime rate "softest" prisons yet surprisingly lowest rate of reincarceration. Punishment does not work rehabilitation does. Revenge is not an adequate basis for society to do something.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-02-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 09:55 AM)toadaly Wrote:  I'm ok with ape-rage revenge. The desire for revenge is innate, and IMHO, it's the entire reason we have a penal system at all. Civil society has always leaned on a brutish undertone. Even where there is no death penalty, the primary purpose of imprisonment remains punishment.

Excuse me, I live in a country where we have no death penalty and we get along and live just fine. What is apparent is that it serves no purpose other than personal vendetta, which is neither the public's concern, nor is it an ethical thing to do. What you are doing is excusing barbaric, inhumane action. By your logic, murder should be permitted because it is quite typical in the natural world. No, just because it is natural does not make it right. Grow the fuck up.

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25-02-2014, 10:04 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 09:53 AM)natachan Wrote:  The idealist in me is against the death penalty. The government must stand as the objective law, as the objective justice. It is not there to mete out vengeance, but to pass justice. As such it should not deign to execute someone for murder, but to see that justice is served and that this person pays for what they have done. A life of hard labor, for example, would be acceptable. You kill someone? You get to spend your life digging ditches and cleaning up highways and whatnot.

If the goal is justice, and not mere punishment, then the slave labor of the convicts should be used to fund the estate of the victim in perpetuity. IMHO, that would be a much better system - force those guilty of crimes with victims, to compensate their victims with slave labor enforced by the state.

Of course, since most crimes go unpunished, for cases that don't involve murder, we would ideally use some kind of actuarial compensation - theft of $100 would require slave labor equal to $20000, because only 1% of such crimes end up prosecuted...or something like that. (you want crime to be a losing proposition on average, not merely a break even), and a victim feels a loss much greater than just $100.

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25-02-2014, 10:14 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 10:02 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Excuse me, I love in a country where we have no death penalty and we get along and live just fine. What is apparent is that it serves no purpose other than personal vendetta, which is neither the public's concern, nor is it an ethical thing to do. What you are doing is excusing barbaric, inhumane action.

I'm sorry, but you and I simply don't share the same ethics. I have no problem at all exacting revenge for the sake of revenge. I view this as not only acceptable, but necessary for maintaining order, and an ethical good as a result.

Quote: By your logic, murder should be permitted because it is quite typical in the natural world. No, just because it is natural does not make it right.

I'm pretty sure that's the exact opposite of what I stated.

Quote: Grow the fuck up.

...says liitle miss "why can't we all just be nice to each other" Facepalm

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25-02-2014, 10:16 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 09:55 AM)toadaly Wrote:  I'm ok with ape-rage revenge. The desire for revenge is innate, and IMHO, it's the entire reason we have a penal system at all. Civil society has always leaned on a brutish undertone. Even where there is no death penalty, the primary purpose of imprisonment remains punishment.

Sure, except for the jurisdictions where the purpose of imprisonment is protection and rehabilitation.
(one might even say those are the jurisdictions with the lowest rates of recidivism and incarceration, but that's a little facile because there are so many additional factors)

Punitive justice is a driver which exists in humans in a fairly normal statistical distribution. Some people hold such an impulse very dear. Some people feel no such impulse at all.

The question then is do we set up our society on the basis of results (insofar as it is possible to obtain the requisite data) or do we set up our society on the basis of opinion (what with being democratic and all).

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25-02-2014, 10:30 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 10:01 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I give you the model the world should follow Norway. http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2013...n-systems/ Highest standard of living lowest crime rate "softest" prisons yet surprisingly lowest rate of reincarceration. Punishment does not work rehabilitation does. Revenge is not an adequate basis for society to do something.

The murder rate in Norway is 2.3 per 100,000. The murder rate in Singapore is 0.3 per 100,000. The Scandinavian nations, in spite of the hype of how peaceful they are, are statistically about average worldwide.

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25-02-2014, 10:37 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 10:16 AM)cjlr Wrote:  The question then is do we set up our society on the basis of results (insofar as it is possible to obtain the requisite data) or do we set up our society on the basis of opinion (what with being democratic and all).

In a democratic society, it's always going to be based on opinion. Opinions can of course be changed by demonstrating results, but some opinions are going to be tough to change.

For example, there's no evidence you could submit, that would convince me I should not desire revenge on someone who raped and murdered one of my kids. I'd be ok with reforming thieves, if it's shown to work, because they can actually compensate their victims. But violent criminals, not so much.

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25-02-2014, 10:37 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 10:30 AM)toadaly Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 10:01 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I give you the model the world should follow Norway. http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2013...n-systems/ Highest standard of living lowest crime rate "softest" prisons yet surprisingly lowest rate of reincarceration. Punishment does not work rehabilitation does. Revenge is not an adequate basis for society to do something.

The murder rate in Norway is 2.3 per 100,000. The murder rate in Singapore is 0.3 per 100,000. The Scandinavian nations, in spite of the hype of how peaceful they are, are statistically about average worldwide.

Except they are much lower than any country with the death penalty except Singapore (who lets face it is not a country you would really want to live in) and lets compare apples to apples and take a single city in norway to compare to Singapore.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-02-2014, 11:11 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
As I said before and will say again. Death penalty is more humane then life sentence in american prisons.
At least give em a choice.
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25-02-2014, 11:54 AM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 10:37 AM)toadaly Wrote:  In a democratic society, it's always going to be based on opinion. Opinions can of course be changed by demonstrating results, but some opinions are going to be tough to change.

Sure, but only depending on a particular society's idea of just what a justice system is for and how best to accomplish its goals, and in most cases further filtered by representative democracy instead of 50%+1 binding referenda.

(25-02-2014 10:37 AM)toadaly Wrote:  For example, there's no evidence you could submit, that would convince me I should not desire revenge on someone who raped and murdered one of my kids.

That's not the point.
(but, it's a good appeal to emotion, so there's that)

(25-02-2014 10:37 AM)toadaly Wrote:  I'd be ok with reforming thieves, if it's shown to work, because they can actually compensate their victims. But violent criminals, not so much.

The point is that other people have different moral foundations and thus will naturally and statistically disagree.

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