The End of The Death Penalty in America
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25-02-2014, 12:00 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 10:37 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 10:30 AM)toadaly Wrote:  The murder rate in Norway is 2.3 per 100,000. The murder rate in Singapore is 0.3 per 100,000. The Scandinavian nations, in spite of the hype of how peaceful they are, are statistically about average worldwide.

Except they are much lower than any country with the death penalty except Singapore (who lets face it is not a country you would really want to live in) and lets compare apples to apples and take a single city in norway to compare to Singapore.

One data point does not a trend make. And also the most recent data available from the UN is 2011, which is an extreme outlier in Norway (the average for the preceeding 16 years is 0.8).

And besides, if the claim one is making (I say 'one' since it is a claim some make) is that having a death penalty acts as a deterrent, then the above observation has just disproved that much.

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25-02-2014, 12:08 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 12:00 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 10:37 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Except they are much lower than any country with the death penalty except Singapore (who lets face it is not a country you would really want to live in) and lets compare apples to apples and take a single city in norway to compare to Singapore.

One data point does not a trend make. And also the most recent data available from the UN is 2011, which is an extreme outlier in Norway (the average for the preceeding 16 years is 0.8).

And besides, if the claim one is making (I say 'one' since it is a claim some make) is that having a death penalty acts as a deterrent, then the above observation has just disproved that much.

This is just the abortion debate all over again. One side has facts, figures, research, and common sense the other side has appeals to emotion and distortion.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-02-2014, 12:10 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 09:46 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 09:43 AM)toadaly Wrote:  Maybe so, but the justice system is a legitimate and necessary role of the state. If we're worried about saving money, I'm pretty sure we can find fluff to cut. That said, I'm not a proponent of the death penalty, because our justice system has been completely corrupted by the combination of mandatory sentencing, the practice of plea bargaining, and a general decline into a police state.

I addressed all of the other issues earlier but when someone says they are a fan of barbarity on economic reasons have to bust out the bottom line. There is only 1 reason anyone supports the Death Penalty and that is just pure Ape-rage revenge. He killed someone so we gotta kill him back. I refuse to concede any moral high ground to people thinking like that. This is not being soft on crime this is wanting to live in a civilised society.

of course executions cost more than life in prison. I guess I should have stated that a streamlined appeals process can cut down on that expense drastically.

I'm not claiming a moral high ground either. I would shed no tears over the death of a sociopath anymore than I would be upset if a dog that mauled someone got put down. But I'm barbaric like that.

Part of the problem with having too much empathy is that it is starting to soften the penalties for people who really just don't belong in society. Mary Winkler murdered her husband in cold blood, and basically got a slap on the wrist for it. Her defense? He liked her to dress sexy and role play in the bedroom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Winkler

but somehow it was acceptable for her to shoot her husband in the back instead of simply saying no to the sexual interaction and leaving the marriage.

perhaps this is just the media, but it just seems like more and more people pat criminals on the head and say, "You poor thing. You had a hard childhood. Its not your fault you went on to commit crimes." Its nonsense. Maybe I'm the sociopath...I don't have any shred of empathy for murderers. Hobo

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25-02-2014, 12:11 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 12:10 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  perhaps this is just the media, but it just seems like more and more people pat criminals on the head and say, "You poor thing. You had a hard childhood. Its not your fault you went on to commit crimes." Its nonsense.

Dodgy

It's just the media.

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25-02-2014, 12:31 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(06-02-2014 01:28 PM)Alla Wrote:  I am against revenge. Revenge is wrong reason to give death penalty. But I am for JUSTICE.
If I steel from you $10 I have to give it back to you. This is fair and Justice. If I kill you in cold blood I have to die also. It is fair and Justice not a revenge.
You sound like a ruthless dictator god.

This is one of the many reasons why I don't like gods, they supposedly create a "moral" standard. Hold everyone to it, and kill people for not obeying stating that it is Justice!

I prefer human law to godly justice. Human law is about protection of members of society. We kill people who are dangerous e.g. serial rapists, serial murderers.

Gods aren't such a problem because gods don't exist. The problem happens when people think they are god, think they can make moral judgments and dish out moral justice. Then we have people demanding death as justice, then we get non violent, non dangerous people such as homosexuals being put to death merely for loving someone.
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25-02-2014, 01:15 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 10:37 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Except they are much lower than any country with the death penalty except Singapore (who lets face it is not a country you would really want to live in) and lets compare apples to apples and take a single city in norway to compare to Singapore.

Iraq's murder rate is 2.0 per 100,000. I think you are drawing a causal relationship, where it's certainly not obvious why one would even exist. How would the lack of death penalty, even conceivably cause the murder rate to lower? IMHO, death penalties reflect society at large, much more so than they guide it.

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25-02-2014, 01:23 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 01:15 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 10:37 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Except they are much lower than any country with the death penalty except Singapore (who lets face it is not a country you would really want to live in) and lets compare apples to apples and take a single city in norway to compare to Singapore.

Iraq's murder rate is 2.0 per 100,000. I think you are drawing a causal relationship, where it's certainly not obvious why one would even exist. How would the lack of death penalty, even conceivably cause the murder rate to lower? IMHO, death penalties reflect society at large, much more so than they guide it.

[Image: executions_2010.png?w=500]

I would rather my country not be on that list but if you think the Death Penalty is such a great idea there are the nations that you can go to and enjoy that punishment. Not exactly the world leaders in freedom and well being.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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25-02-2014, 01:23 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 10:14 AM)toadaly Wrote:  I'm sorry, but you and I simply don't share the same ethics. I have no problem at all exacting revenge for the sake of revenge. I view this as not only acceptable, but necessary for maintaining order, and an ethical good as a result.

Yes, you personally view it as necessary, but your views are quite delusional because it is not necessary for maintaining order.

(25-02-2014 10:14 AM)toadaly Wrote:  I'm pretty sure that's the exact opposite of what I stated.

Incorrect. Your attempt to justify the death penalty was an appeal to the natural element of vengeance -- which is a fallacy.

(25-02-2014 10:14 AM)toadaly Wrote:  ...says liitle miss "why can't we all just be nice to each other" Facepalm

Ah, so you are too lazy to even look and see what gender the person is to whom you are addressing? It has been proven to you numerous times that the death penalty is unnecessary, barbaric, and ineffective at everything. I also fail to see how life in prison is "being nice to criminals."

So again, grow the fuck up, you ignorant shit stain.

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25-02-2014, 01:32 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 12:00 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-02-2014 10:37 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Except they are much lower than any country with the death penalty except Singapore (who lets face it is not a country you would really want to live in) and lets compare apples to apples and take a single city in norway to compare to Singapore.

One data point does not a trend make. And also the most recent data available from the UN is 2011, which is an extreme outlier in Norway (the average for the preceeding 16 years is 0.8).

And besides, if the claim one is making (I say 'one' since it is a claim some make) is that having a death penalty acts as a deterrent, then the above observation has just disproved that much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...icide_rate

If you use 0.8, rather than the most recent data, there are still about 50 nations with lesser, or similar murder rates, many of which have death penalties. But again, how would the lack of a death penalty cause murder rates to drop?

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25-02-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: The End of The Death Penalty in America
(25-02-2014 01:23 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Ah, so you are too lazy to even look and see what gender the person is to whom you are addressing?

Yes, I am indeed too lazy to go research your profile. You're a stupid fucking hypocritical cunt, and I'm just not that into you.

Quote:It has been proven to you numerous times that the death penalty is unnecessary, barbaric, and ineffective at everything.

I didn't say the death penalty was necessary. Learn to read you stupid effeminate fuck.

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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