The European Union UK Referendum
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22-06-2016, 06:11 PM
RE: The European Union UK Referendum
(22-06-2016 03:45 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 03:17 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Sovereignty is basically freedom on a national/state level. Do you think that the value of that should be questioned?

This quote by D.H. Lawrence came to my mind

“Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves.”

A state exists to provide an ordered society. Why the hell people set such great store by dividing up various geographical regions into different governments or think this limits their freedom in some way I have no idea. If there was a single EU superstate, what of it? All it means is there's a central federal administration. What's so great about insisting on regional governments?

You can't erase different national identities of European people or pretend they don't exist , there is no such a thing as a European as a nationality. Like there was no Yugoslavian as a national identity, for example. We know how that federation ended.
The divisions have nothing to do with geography , it's different cultures , languages, traditions , economies , histories and more.

European superstate would be unnatural and forced marriage of unwilling participants , it would not make anybody happy but the ruling elite.
In order to stifle opposition and to force new rules on the population it is very likely that EU government will turn authoritarian quite fast.
And if you think that is unlikely because " Europe is soooooo democratic" I would advise you to check history books and see how many authoritarian regimes there were in Europe in just last 100 years.

Also , a good read...

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe...arian-wave

On the continent pre-existing authoritarian tendencies enjoyed a quantum leap under the EU-wide austerity regime fostered by the German government under the cover of the European Commission. The unelected governments in Greece (2011-12) and Italy (2011-13) represent the most obvious and shocking examples of the authoritarian trend.


This treaty, which came into effect at the beginning of 2013, severely limits the authority of national parliaments to set fiscal policy. The treaty and additional measures demanded by the German government remove fiscal policy from public control (with monetary policy in the hands of the European Central Bank and beyond national accountability). This process in which major decisions are taken away from the electorate fundamentally undermines public faith in the democratic process.

Almost exactly a year ago, Peer Steinbrueck, then the German Social Democratic Party's candidate for chancellor, spoke at the German embassy in London. In his speech he proposed that the European Commission should have the power to veto national budgets if they exceed the guidelines of the fiscal pack. I suggested during questions that such a veto would violate the principle that the governed should be able to hold their governments accountable. He replied that fiscal stability required countries to surrender some of their sovereignty. In other words, the goal of “fiscal stability” requires the citizens of Europe to surrender their basic democratic right to hold a government responsible for its economic policies.


It won't end well imo.

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22-06-2016, 08:49 PM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2016 08:54 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: The European Union UK Referendum
(22-06-2016 03:17 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 10:45 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Still rotating the same, soverngty and tradition are values to uphold.. because. I guess because they've existed before as ways. Still can't quite get over how that's often just assumed on its own sake of merrit

Sovereignty is basically freedom on a national/state level. Do you think that the value of that should be questioned?

This quote by D.H. Lawrence came to my mind

“Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves.”

Yes... I am amazed you would ask someone if they think something should be questioned. Perhaps that's why I disagree with these political positions of your mind.

To take anything a priori, as is, or on assumption politically and philosophically is verging on foolhardiness. Granted you have the awareness to critically examine it.

To equate a European as "unnatural" is the most idiotic element in itself. So is British, French, German, Cornish, It's all cultural brought up bullshit. Those were also FORCED in their waves too largely based on the same desires, unified control, less war infighting growth, trade, etc. just in time periods of the past in the 19th century or 11th century and so on. Big deal, time being apart of something means what exactly? Time is not some arbitrary force that means something different. The "english or British" identity is a mix of Celts, Anglo-saxons, Scandinavian, Roman, and Norman regional shifting changes all mixed up. Because it happened long ago doesn't make it something that happened any more "naturally" or legitimately.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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23-06-2016, 12:41 AM (This post was last modified: 23-06-2016 12:44 AM by morondog.)
RE: The European Union UK Referendum
(22-06-2016 06:11 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  In other words, the goal of “fiscal stability” requires the citizens of Europe to surrender their basic democratic right to hold a government responsible for its economic policies.

It won't end well imo.

Fair enough. Yet other super-states manage to be simultaneously geographically big *and* to hold their elected officials responsible for the economy. e.g. USA. Sure, on a *state* level you lose it, but if EU government is taking responsibility for setting EU economic policy, they will definitely have to take criticism if it goes wrong. Also if they *can't* make decisions at a level above an individual state, there's virtually no point to having an EU government.

I don't buy the "but everyone's just too different" story. In the past borders were created by single states warring for control of regions. A border is not a natural thing. It's two kings from way back saying "Dis MINE". Although people do tend to hang out in their communities I think it's perfectly possible for different ethnicities, nationalities, tribes etc to get on without needing a border to keep them separate. In any case, internal borders within the EU, for EU citizens, already don't really exist, and the place hasn't gone up in smoke.

I agree that recent trends in securocratic thinking and anti-democratic stuff like weakening of trade unions are cause for concern, I just don't see how any of that changes if you restrict it to a national rather than EU wide level.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-06-2016, 01:34 AM
RE: The European Union UK Referendum
My guess is that this referendum will end the same way the Scottish one did. People will side with the status quo and vote to remain in the EU.

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23-06-2016, 02:12 AM
RE: The European Union UK Referendum
(23-06-2016 01:34 AM)Vosur Wrote:  My guess is that this referendum will end the same way the Scottish one did. People will side with the status quo and vote to remain in the EU.

Vosur,

My wife and I will be voting in a couple of hours time. I hope that you are right; life with the 'little Englanders' won't be much fun if not. I'm Scottish expat.

OTOH the Scottish polling for Scexit has moved from 45% to 53% recently, so there would be a rather large consolation prize after Brexit.

D.
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23-06-2016, 04:01 AM
RE: The European Union UK Referendum
(22-06-2016 08:49 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 03:17 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Sovereignty is basically freedom on a national/state level. Do you think that the value of that should be questioned?

This quote by D.H. Lawrence came to my mind

“Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves.”

Yes... I am amazed you would ask someone if they think something should be questioned. Perhaps that's why I disagree with these political positions of your mind.

To take anything a priori, as is, or on assumption politically and philosophically is verging on foolhardiness. Granted you have the awareness to critically examine it.

To equate a European as "unnatural" is the most idiotic element in itself. So is British, French, German, Cornish, It's all cultural brought up bullshit. Those were also FORCED in their waves too largely based on the same desires, unified control, less war infighting growth, trade, etc. just in time periods of the past in the 19th century or 11th century and so on. Big deal, time being apart of something means what exactly? Time is not some arbitrary force that means something different. The "english or British" identity is a mix of Celts, Anglo-saxons, Scandinavian, Roman, and Norman regional shifting changes all mixed up. Because it happened long ago doesn't make it something that happened any more "naturally" or legitimately.

It is not the matter if things should be questioned or not. In general they should, of course. It is that some things have been sufficiently questioned and answered. Sovereignty is one of those things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

The right of nations to self-determination (from[citation needed] German: Selbstbestimmungsrecht der Völker) is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule), binding, as such, on the United Nations as authoritative interpretation of the Charter’s norms.[1][2] It states that nations, based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity, have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no interference.[3]

Also

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.



You can question the value of sovereignty, self determination and call nationality a cultural brought up bullshit. For me, those questions have been answered. Sovereignty is a value that should be upheld and nationality is a significant part of my personal identity. You are free to disagree.

Quote:Big deal, time being apart of something means what exactly? Time is not some arbitrary force that means something different.

And time is a force that makes a difference, time is essential component of change. The more time you spend being a part of something makes you more different from those who are not a part of the same thing to a different degree , cultures grow in different directions. This is self evident I would think.

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23-06-2016, 04:58 AM
RE: The European Union UK Referendum
As an Aussie, I'm hoping we have another referendum on our proposed republic. It could happen when Betty pops her clogs, and we can piss the UK off.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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23-06-2016, 05:44 AM
RE: The European Union UK Referendum
(23-06-2016 12:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(22-06-2016 06:11 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  In other words, the goal of “fiscal stability” requires the citizens of Europe to surrender their basic democratic right to hold a government responsible for its economic policies.

It won't end well imo.

Fair enough. Yet other super-states manage to be simultaneously geographically big *and* to hold their elected officials responsible for the economy. e.g. USA. Sure, on a *state* level you lose it, but if EU government is taking responsibility for setting EU economic policy, they will definitely have to take criticism if it goes wrong. Also if they *can't* make decisions at a level above an individual state, there's virtually no point to having an EU government.

I don't buy the "but everyone's just too different" story. In the past borders were created by single states warring for control of regions. A border is not a natural thing. It's two kings from way back saying "Dis MINE". Although people do tend to hang out in their communities I think it's perfectly possible for different ethnicities, nationalities, tribes etc to get on without needing a border to keep them separate. In any case, internal borders within the EU, for EU citizens, already don't really exist, and the place hasn't gone up in smoke.

I agree that recent trends in securocratic thinking and anti-democratic stuff like weakening of trade unions are cause for concern, I just don't see how any of that changes if you restrict it to a national rather than EU wide level.

One of the reasons that US works is that they have developed a national identity as being Americans. It is not a meter of geographical size.

Were Americans wrong to fight for their independence and sovereignty?
when they celebrate the Independence day are they celebrating the day when they fucked up or they celebrate the day when they did good for themselves?

And it`s not a meter of borders either or people not getting along , it`s about the policies and different economies. One size doesn`t fit all , what works in German economy doesn`t work in Greek economy. At least that should be obvious by now.

It is just a meter of opinion and experience if you will. I have lived under the authoritarian regime in what I believe to be forced and unnatural federation which resembles greatly the federation proposed by EU . This one did go up in smokes.
Now separated, we work and like each other much better, also that can be said for Czech Republic and Slovakia as well as most ex Soviet republics.

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23-06-2016, 05:51 AM
RE: The European Union UK Referendum
Quote:One of the reasons that US works is that they have developed a national identity as being Americans.

You're using the term "works" very loosely right there.
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23-06-2016, 06:07 AM
RE: The European Union UK Referendum



Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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